Plé úsáideora:Picapica

Ón Vicipéid, an chiclipéid shaor.

Cartlann 0507

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[athraigh] Laoiseach

The Irish Times agus anseo.

That the Gaelic name Laoiseach (Lysagh) was often anglicised/gallicized as Lewis/Louis does not mean that "famed warrior"/Chlodowech/Clovis/Louis should be gaelicized in return as Laoiseach. The only connection between the two names is the ignorance of the anglicizers/gallicizers.

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Picapica 21:05, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

(You really shouldn't use articles on Vicipéid as authority.)

The question perhaps may not be whether it is Gaelicized as Laoiseach, but whether at the time, it was. See: [11]. If the names are direct correlation with one another, names of rulers are often Gaelicized or Italicized or Germanized or Anglicized in accordance with the language's terminology.

Hence German Ludwig XIV, Italian Luigi XIV, Portuguese Luís XIV and Catalan Lluís XIV. In 1717, poet Aogán Ó Rathaille referred to Louis XIV as Laoiseach. If that's what he was called in Ireland in 1717, it merely underscores the ignorance of the writers on those individual websites. Basteagh 21:25, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

[You pinched my indentation level, BTW]

(And you really shouldn't be calling the authors of articles on Vicipéid ignorant.)

It is 2005, not 1717. Whatever Germans (with more right, since it is originally a German name) or Catalans may choose to do, often is not always, and the Irish people of today have as much right to say Louis if they wish as English-speakers who never called the French kings Ludovic. -- Picapica 21:36, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

J'ajoute, avec l'esprit de l'escalier: and where's the "direct correlation" between "famous warrior" and "man from Laois", whatever the number of renowned fighters hailing from that county? Luigi and co. are at least cognate with Louis. -- Picapica 21:45, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

(You had no indentation level, except in your first sentence, BTW)

I'm certain that they have as much right to say Laoiseach as well as Louis. Frankly, when there's so many different variations of the Irish language with no complete consensus many subjects, I believe that yielding to a man who spoke Irish as a first and likely only language would have referred to him. Where are the history books in Gaelic? This debate could continue indefinitely. Of course, if you can find my first entry of the name, you'll find someone changed mine from Louis to Laoiseach.

Doesn't mean they were right to do so! -- Picapica 22:03, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

And perhaps there is no direct correlation. Regardless of whether the original cognate was based on an incorrect correlation, it must have become correlated along the way. Basteagh 21:49, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

So do you expect the English-language Wikipedia to be written in 300-year-old English? An Vicipéid is not, I hope, the museum of a dead language. There is a Latin Wikipedia and even, I believe, an Anglo-Saxon one for people who like to play at writing in deceased languages.

And next time you're near a dictionary, you may care to look up the meaning of the word "cognate". -- Picapica 22:00, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

You've lost me with the number of tabulations, here. And we all hope that An Vicipéid is not the museum of a dead language, unless you happen to be my psychiatrist despite being from Ireland, has no use for Irish, or our friend Kiand.

Oh, and I didn't call anyone ignorant. You are attributing something to me that is derivative and misleading. I remarked about people's ignorance. When speaking of golf, I have ignorance. It does not make me ignorant in general. It was not a nice thing to say that I called people ignorant. There is a clear and plain difference between the two. Basteagh 22:31, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

Well now, here's the trail. I quoted inter alia [12]] and [[13]] (Wikipedia articles, and therefore non-authoritative according to you). You responded by commenting on "the ignorance of the writers on those individual websites". I can see no "clear and plain difference" between commenting upon X's ignorance and calling X ignorant. "It was not a nice thing to say that I called people ignorant." It was not intended to be, because such name-calling is not all that nice a thing to do. If you tell me you did not in fact intend to say what you said, then I accept that. But... watch your words!

Sorry if I lost you with the "tabulations" -- deciphering the indentation levels in fierce Wiki-debates is a skill eventually acquired by frequent practice! But just as the Dutch King declared, for some reason, according to the Wilhelmuslied, that de koning van Hispanje heb ik altijd geëerd so shall I remain true to an Rí Louis -- and that's something, let me tell you, coming from a lifelong republican (sensu non americana, of course!) comme moi -- Picapica 23:33, 2 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

Here in my part of the world--Southern USA--there is a major difference between the two, and maybe I didn't realize that other people might mistake my meaning. However, I did not call people ignorant. That would have been an insult. A very severe insult. One has to often watch one's back for using a word like that. There is a major difference.

Pointing out ignorance on a certain topic, as I did, contextually, is not an insult but a criticism, and often not evem that. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", seems to be a frightening thing, considering some of the archaic laws many towns in the US still have from bygone eras, and one with which most of us could relate.

Ahhhh, but I feel as if I'm beginning to ramble. Even as I type, I'm sure you know all this already. I respect you, Picapica...I wouldn't even be engaging in this conversation with you if I didn't. But you can be so cruel sometimes. Basteagh 13:19, 3 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

[athraigh] The first day of the week

Hi Picapica, With reference to previous discussion on your page http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plé_úsáideora:Picapica/cartlann0507#F.C3.A9ilire I do have to return to the topic of the format of the month templates you've worked on. In Ireland it is specified in law that by default Sunday is the first day of the week for legal purposes. From the Interpretation Act 1937 s.22 '34: 'The word "week", when used without qualification, means the period between midnight on any Saturday and midnight on the next following Saturday.' So the order of presentation in the calender is SMTWTFS or DLMCDAS, with the weekend days flanking the week. (As I said, this isn't an "American" presentation spec, although it is used in America.)

There are also standard abbreviations for months and days which we should use in the Wikipedia. An NSAI technical subcommittee has submitted these to the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR) Project -- which means that Windows, Linux, Mac OS, Solaris, and the rest of the world's operating systems will be using those abbreviations. Would you like me to help with revising the templates? Evertype 08:00, 19 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

No, I'll just leave you to it, Evertype. I see you've gone ahead anyway.

I don't really see the relevance of computer operating systems to the front-end appearance of our encyclopedia, although one or two others clearly do. Some articles are rapidly disappearing up their own nest of interlocking templates: the techies are taking over, I fear...

As for the legal situation (another red herring, in my view), no need to call the guards out just yet. But if you think it matters that much, I already pointed out to you that Ireland adopted EuroNorm EN 28601 (incorporating international standard ISO-8601, which states inter alia

that the first day (day number 1) of a week is Monday and that the first week in a year (week number 1) is the week that includes the first Thursday in January

And as I'm sure you know, 1993 Euro Law trumps 1937 Irish Law.

Your faith in the mighty powers of the NSAI is amazing, E. They themselves only claim that:

NSAI facilitates the development of voluntary standard documents which manufacturers or service providers may use as an aid to meeting safety or customer requirements.

Voluntary and may, you notice. "No, no," cries Evertype, "they are the masters - they shall overrule!"

Windows, Linux, Mac OS, Solaris, and the rest of the world's operating systems will be using those abbreviations

So it's Croppy Lie Down, is it? No, I'd rather be off, go raibh maith agat. There's plenty for me to be doing in the other-language Wikipedias. Good job I've got some wings...

Bye, everybody, and thanks for all the fios. -- Picapica 21:13, 23 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the EN 28601 and ISO 8601, the cultural expectation in Ireland in calendar presentation is for weekends to flank the week. (And the EN and ISO standards are not intended to alter such presentation, but merely to allow administrations to count weeks in the same way.) CLDR is a reality, its specifications are going to be in everybody's OS, and there's nothing wrong with the Vicipéid being in harmony with what will be built in as the Irish (en and ga) default spec in those OSes. Evertype 12:36, 24 Lúnasa 2005 (UTC)