Talk:Vic Toews

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

	Canada Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada and related WikiProjects, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Canada-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project member page, to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.
	This article is part of the Political parties and politicians in Canada WikiProject (Discuss/Join).

Contents 1 Pronunciation 2 Problems with GoldDragon's preferred version 3 Response to CJCurrie allegations 4 Marital status 5 Religion

[edit] Pronunciation

The pronunciation in the article [tævs] (rhymes with laughs) doesn't seem right to me. Shouldn't the vowel be a diphthong, as in [teıvz]? —Michael Z. 2006-12-05 18:52 Z

For a non-expert in IPA, would that rhyme with "Dave's" or "waves"? If so, that's probably what was intended, but still realy just a guess by both of us, isn't it? Gene Nygaard (talk) 15:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The pronunciation of names in Canada should conform to the phonology of English or French. Discussions as such are irrelevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.147.192 (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with GoldDragon's preferred version

(i)

Compare my preferred version of the following paragraph with GoldDragon's preferred version:

Toews had a difficult relationship with organized labour, and was sometimes accused of promoting anti-labour policies. His first major legislative initiative was Bill 26 (1996), which required unions to disclose the salaries of their officials and indicate how membership dues were spent, mandated union certification votes to take place within seven days of an application, and granted employees the right to prevent their dues from being donated to political parties.^[1] NDP leader Gary Doer argued that the latter measure unfairly targeted his party, and suggested that corporate shareholders should be given the same right to shield their investments from party donations (an initiative more likely to weaken Progressive Conservative fundraising efforts).^[2] Toews denied that his bill was anti-labour, and argued that it provided greater autonomy to individual workers.

Toews first major legislative initiative was Bill 26 (1996) which would give greater autonomy to individual workers. The law required unions to disclose the salaries of their officials and indicate how membership dues were spent, mandated union certification votes to take place within seven days of an application, and granted employees the right to prevent their dues from being donated to political parties.^[3] NDP leader Gary Doer argued that the bill unfairly targeted his party, which Toews denied.^[4]

1. It is no exaggeration to say that Toews had a difficult relationship with organized labour, a point which was repeatedly stressed in press reports from the period. If direct proof is required, please consider the following:

A Manitoba Labour document dated March 1 details the proposed changes to the MLRA and the rationale for such changes, as proposed by Labour Minister Vic Toews to the Manitoba Federation of Labour.

The MFL doesn't much like the rationale. Last week it held a special one-day session devoted to dealing with what seems certain to come with a majority government. We have a broad-based, right-wing attack on the labour movement, said MFL president Rob Hilliard of the government's proposals.

But Brian Shell, a Toronto-based staff lawyer for the United Steelworkers of America, was more sweeping in his remarks to the MFL. This is the testing ground of labour relations, said Shell.

Shell said that in Ontario, organized labour has suffered several changes under the Ontario Tories but adds what is being proposed by Manitoba go even further. This law goes way beyond anything Premier Mike dreams of, commented Shell. (Winnipeg Free Press, 7 May 1996, B4)

Unions blamed But Labour Minister Vic Toews blamed unions for provoking the series of strikes. "It's been the deliberate policy of the unions to put people out on strike," Toews said. "I feel that many of these strikes are for political, not economic, reasons. The public-sector unions have a political agenda. That is why they are encouraging strikes" (Winnipeg Free Press, 29 August 1996, A1.)

The former minister, Vic Toews, had a brief honeymoon period before he became point man on the Tories' controversial changes to labour legislation. As such, Toews became the target of much acrimony, to the point where his home was picketed by protesters. (Winnipeg Free Press, 28 January 1997, B9)

I'm prepared to remove the phrase "and was sometimes accused of promoting anti-labour policies", as it could be interpreted as "poisoning the well". I'm prepared to remove "denied that his bill was anti-labour" for the same reason. I'm not prepared to remove the entire section.

2. The idea that Toews' bill "gave more autonomy to individual workers" is nothing more than partisan spin. We shouldn't advocate this perspective, any more than we should be advocate the corresponding counter-spin is that the bill was anti-union.

3. Here's what Gary Doer had to say about the bill at the time:

Word of the plan brought cries of foul from Manitoba's labour movement and opposition New Democrats. They called it a blatant attempt by the Tories to restrict financial support for their political opponents. The NDP says it derives about 10 per cent of its annual contributions from unions, although that goes up to as much as 25 per cent in an election year.

NDP Leader Gary Doer said if that's the game the Tories want to play, they should also require their corporate friends to canvass their shareholders and allow them to opt out of contributing to PC coffers.

If anything, my summary erred too far in the direction of balance. I should have worded it as "NDP leader Gary Doer argued that the latter measure unfairly targeted his party, and suggested that corporate shareholders should be given the same right to shield their investments from donations to the Progressive Conservative Party".

Considering that Doer actually eliminated corporate and union donations to political parties once he became premier, I'd say the matter is entirely relevant to our encyclopedia.

(ii)

GoldDragon has argued that the following sentence should be removed:

There were also strikes at Boeing, Inco, and the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation in 1996, leading one journalist to describe it as "the busiest year for picketing since the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike".^[5]

Perhaps he'll reconsider when he discovers the context of the original quote, which was presented as part of an annual summary:

Labour unrest: The busiest year for picketing since the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike makes for a hot and heated summer for Labour Minister Vic Toews. Workers at Boeing, Inco, Manitoba Lotteries Corp. and provincial nursing homes all hit the bricks muddying Toews' reputation. (Winnipeg Free Press, 31 December 1996, A8)

[For what it's worth, I don't object to GoldDragon's changes to the "Payment of Wages Fund" paragraph.]

(iii)

GoldDragon has added a bit of editorializing to the a sentence about the Canadian gun registry:

In 1997, he announced that Manitoba would not enforce or administer the Canadian gun registry, which was later plagued by cost overruns and corruption charges. (GoldDragon's change is bolded)

This sort of editorializing is pretty clearly inappropriate. I could just as easily write "which was supported by most Canadian police chiefs", if I wanted to skew the discussion in the other direction.

[I'm not going to object to GoldDragon's change to the "Lloyd Axworthy" paragraph, which is fairly incidental.]

(iv)

Compare my preferred version of the following paragraph with GoldDragon's preferred version:

Toews's relationship with the judiciary was often fractious. In 1999, he delivered a speech to the Alberta Summit on Justice that criticized judges for intervening in political matters. He was quoted as saying that judges, unlike parliamentarians, "are not well-placed to understand and represent the social, economic and political values of the public". Some attendees criticized his speech, and a representative of the Legal Aid Society of Alberta described it as "inflammatory and sensational".^[6] Later in the year, a provincial judge criticized Toews for making what she described as "misleading and inaccurate" remarks about judicial appointments and the daily schedules of judges.^[7]

In 1999, Toews delivered a speech to the Alberta Summit on Justice that criticized judges for intervening in political matters. He was quoted as saying that judges, unlike parliamentarians, "are not well-placed to understand and represent the social, economic and political values of the public". Some attendees criticized his speech, and a representative of the Legal Aid Society of Alberta described it as "inflammatory and sensational".^[8]

1. It is not an exaggeration to say that Toews' relationship with the judiciary was often fractious. If direct proof is required, please consider the following:

I N A prepared statement expressing his regret for any ``misunderstanding, Justice Minister Vic Toews attempted yesterday to write the final chapter in a bitter public row with the province's judges.

``I regret any misunderstanding that might have been generated by my lack of clarity and take responsibility for any misunderstanding that I may have caused, Toews told the legislature, reading from a three-page statement that was brokered by lawyers acting for the government and for the province's chief judge. Toews was accused last week of tampering with a committee responsible for nominating candidates for judicial appointments. The allegations flow from discussions he had with the chairwoman of the committee, Chief Provincial Court Judge Judith Webster.

Previously, Toews said some judges are out of touch with public concerns and he mused about an elected judiciary with term limits. (Winnipeg Free Press, 14 May 1998, A1)

2. For that matter, please consider the other reference which GoldDragon is trying to cut out of the paragraph (and which I consider entirely relevant):

The provincial court's top judge took a swipe at the Justice Minister Vic Toews yesterday, expressing her "profound disappointment" with his "misleading and inaccurate" comments about the appointment of judges and their workload.

In a Free Press story Saturday about appointing three new judges, Toews said he went to the Treasury Board as soon as he received Chief Provincial Court Judge Judith Webster's request for three new judges. He also said judges work only a few hours a day.

"It is regrettable that before making these incorrect remarks, you did not consult with your senior legal staff, all of whom are well aware of the busy schedule of the provincial court," Webster wrote in a strongly worded three-page letter to Toews dated June 9 and hand-delivered to the minister's office. Provincial court made the letter available to reporters yesterday. (Winnipeg Free Press, 10 June 1999, City Page)

(v)

GoldDragon chose to remove the following paragraph entirely:

Both Toews and his department were frequent targets of opposition criticism from 1997 and 1999. The New Democrats often argued that Crown offices were underfunded, and suggested that the Justice Department's prosecutorial duties were compromised.refThese concerns became especially prominent after June 1997, when the Manitoba Court of Appeal allowed a man who admitted to having sexual intercourse with a twelve-year old girl to serve his sentence in the community rather than in prison. In making its decision, the court argued that the girl was a willing participant and possessed enough sophistication to consent. Toews expressed serious concerns about the trial's outcome, and filed leave to appeal the case to the Supreme Court of Canada. See News briefs, Associated Press, 9 June 1997, 20:13 report. Toews's decision to appeal was not controversial, but the Crown's handling of the original case soon became a source of debate. NDP Justice Critic Gord Mackintosh observed that the Crown never challenged defence claims that the girl consented to the act. See Scott Edmonds, "Girl scared into silence", Globe and Mail, 10 June 1997, A3. The New Democrats argued that departmental underfunding had led to a lax prosecution; four years later, an internal review found that the Crown's performance in the case had been substandard. See Leah Janzen, "Prosecutors' office a mess, review says", Winnipeg Free Press, 15 October 2000, A1./ref

I had considerable difficulty writing this paragraph. This particular case garnered a fair bit of media attention in Manitoba, and the criticism as regards funding is unquestionably relevant to the article -- at the same time, I didn't want to present the information in a sensational manner, or suggest that Toews was tied directly to the specifics of this particular case.

I'm prepared to compromise on this one: I'm willing to rewrite the paragraph to indicate that the NDP criticized Toews for underfunding the department (and also reference Toews' defence) without mentioning the specifics of this trial.

(vi)

Compare my preferred version of the following paragraph with GoldDragon's preferred version:

Toews was accused of misusing the powers of his office on at least two occasions. In May 1998, he was criticized for asking a judicial appointment committee to add two names to a list of proposed judges. He denied any wrongdoing, and said he only acted to ensure that more bilingual judges would be appointed to the bench.^[9] The second controversy was potentially more serious. During a legislative debate in June 1999, Toews accused NDP Justice Critic Gord Mackintosh of repeatedly calling the province's Street Peace gang hotline, only to hang up before leaving a message. This announcement was not particularly noteworthy in and of itself, but questions soon arose as to how Toews had obtained the information as calls to the hotline were meant to be confidential and anonymous. He eventually acknowledged that calls from government buildings had been tracked, and that he had received Mackintosh's name from a member of his department. Premier Filmon described Toews's conduct as inappropriate, but did not remove him from office.^[10] Toews was also forced to admit that the hotline itself had gone unanswered for several months.

In May 1998, he asked a judicial appointment committee to add two names to a list of proposed judges, to ensure that more bilingual judges would be appointed to the bench. Some criticized the move but Toews denied wrongdoing. ^[11] During a legislative debate in June 1999, Toews accused NDP Justice Critic Gord Mackintosh of mischief by repeatedly calling the province's Street Peace gang hotline, only to hang up before leaving a message. While such calls were suppose to be confidential and anonymous, Toews acknowledged that calls from government buildings had been tracked and that he had received Mackintosh's name from a member of his department. Premier Filmon described Toews's conduct as inappropriate, but did not remove him from office.^[12]

1. My first sentence is not hyperbole or exaggeration: Toews was accused of misusing the powers of his office both times. I'm prepared to "soften" the intro a bit if it will draw a quicker resolution to this dispute, but it shouldn't be left out entirely.

2. GoldDragon's take on the judicial appointment committee matter is a whitewash, pure and simple. It takes Toews' word at face value, and says nothing about the reasons for the criticism. I'm prepared to adjust my wording a bit, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to accept GoldDragon's version.

Btw, readers may be interested in a more recent take on this matter:

In fact, we've seen this movie starring Toews before. If you rewind the tape to 1998, you'll find Toews accused of tampering with the committee responsible for nominating candidates for provincial judicial appointments. The allegations stemmed from discussions he had with the chairwoman of the screening committee, in which Toews reportedly rejected the list of seven judicial candidates submitted, in an apparent breach of the Provincial Court Act. Some charged Toews had tainted the process. He said it was all a misunderstanding. Whatever the reason, Toews eventually got his wish for a bilingual candidate that he named to the bench -- and who just happened to have Tory ties. (Paul Samyn, "War with judges no-brainer for Toews", Winnipeg Free Press, 12 November 2006, A9.)

3. I'm prepared to accept some "trimming" at the end of the paragraph, though I should point out that "suppose to be confidential" is a grammatical error.

(vii)

GoldDragon has argued that this:

The Progressive Conservatives were defeated in the 1999 provincial election

should be replaced with this:

The Progressive Conservatives lost power in the 1999 provincial election

In fact, only the former version is technically accurate. The PCs were defeated in the election, and lost power when they resigned from government shortly thereafter (in accordance with British parliamentary tradition).

[I'm not going to quibble about changing "argued" to "speculated", etc.]

(viii)

GoldDragon has chosen to remove this statement:

Toews also argued that religious organizations should be permitted to deny gay organizations the use of their facilities,

In fact, the statement is correct. Please consider the following:

A Canadian Alliance MP is demanding that the Doer government amend the Manitoba Human Rights Act to let religious groups deny gay organizations use of their facilities.

Camp Arnes, a Mennonite Brethren camp north of Gimli, faces a human rights complaint after telling Winnipeg's gay choir -- the Rainbow Harmony Project -- that it could not rent the camp for a weekend retreat.

Provencher MP Vic Toews said religious groups should not be singled out because of their moral position on homosexuality.

The camp asks visitors to adhere to its code of conduct, which includes not "engaging in or promoting/supporting homosexual activity or organizations."

Visitors are also banned from drinking alcohol, social dancing, support of abortion-related activities and participation in religious practices contrary to the camp's evangelical Christian faith.

Toews said Manitoba's human rights law, which protects individuals from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, is a threat to Canadians' freedom of religion. (Helen Fallding, "Camp should have right to deny gays: Alliance MP", Winnipeg Free Press, 22 November 2002, A5.)

[The "Age of Consent" wording change is trivial, and I don't object to the shifting of the "only two bills" paragraph.]

A further comment

I'm going to make my changes shortly. I've put a fair bit of time into all of this, and I expect GoldDragon and his anonymous friend to seriously engage with all of these points if they want to revert to his preferred version again.

And something else ...

I've noticed that a fair number of anonymous IPs have been reverting to GoldDragon's preferred text in the last few days, on this page and elsewhere. (Evidence: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]) It's obvious that most if not all of these posts are from the same person, and I can't help but notice that s/he seems rather confident from behind his/her mask of anonymity.

I have some ideas as to whom this might be, though it may not matter: I'm far more concerned with questions of behaviour than questions of identity, and there's no question at all that this person's behaviour is profoundly suspicious. I may have to take other steps if this person keeps interfering in this matter. CJCurrie (talk) 08:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to CJCurrie allegations

(i)

Toews had a difficult relationship with organized labour, and was sometimes accused of promoting anti-labour policies. His first major legislative initiative was Bill 26 (1996), which required unions to disclose the salaries of their officials and indicate how membership dues were spent, mandated union certification votes to take place within seven days of an application, and granted employees the right to prevent their dues from being donated to political parties.^[13] NDP leader Gary Doer argued that the latter measure unfairly targeted his party, and suggested that corporate shareholders should be given the same right to shield their investments from party donations (an initiative more likely to weaken Progressive Conservative fundraising efforts).^[14] Toews denied that his bill was anti-labour, and argued that it provided greater autonomy to individual workers.

Ending up, corporate shareholders weren't given the right to shield their investments anyhow, as Doer banned corporate donations. Also, shareholders are not forced to invest in a company, as opposed to a employee who has to become a union member to work at a certain place. Third, union officials are directly using union dues for political contributions, while a company's political contributions are segregated from the dividends due to shareholders.

None of this is especially relevant. You can interpret Doer's response as a reductio ad absurdum argument if you want, but it's still relevant for the purposes of this article. CJCurrie (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

(ii)

There were also strikes at Boeing, Inco, and the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation in 1996, leading one journalist to describe it as "the busiest year for picketing since the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike".^[15]

I'm less opposed to this if we can include Toew's criticism of the strikes. Unions blamed But Labour Minister Vic Toews blamed unions for provoking the series of strikes. "It's been the deliberate policy of the unions to put people out on strike," Toews said. "I feel that many of these strikes are for political, not economic, reasons. The public-sector unions have a political agenda. That is why they are encouraging strikes" (Winnipeg Free Press, 29 August 1996, A1.) But are the Boeing and Inco strikes directly related to Toews's policy? It might be coincidence.

I wouldn't object to including Toews' response. CJCurrie (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

(iii)

In 1997, he announced that Manitoba would not enforce or administer the Canadian gun registry, which was later plagued by cost overruns and corruption charges.

True. Just see that article for details. However, it could be misleading to just state that Toews would not enforce or administer it, without giving a reason.

Not really, given that he opposed it on ideological rather than administrative grounds. CJCurrie (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

(iv)

Toews's relationship with the judiciary was often fractious. In 1999, he delivered a speech to the Alberta Summit on Justice that criticized judges for intervening in political matters. He was quoted as saying that judges, unlike parliamentarians, "are not well-placed to understand and represent the social, economic and political values of the public". Some attendees criticized his speech, and a representative of the Legal Aid Society of Alberta described it as "inflammatory and sensational".^[16] Later in the year, a provincial judge criticized Toews for making what she described as "misleading and inaccurate" remarks about judicial appointments and the daily schedules of judges.^[17]

The provincial judge's comments by itself don't add anything new the mix, nad leaves the reader questioning what Toews did to deserve it. Fortunately, you retrieved what he initially had to say which led to the judge's comments: Toews said some judges are out of touch with public concerns and he mused about an elected judiciary with term limits. (Winnipeg Free Press, 14 May 1998, A1)

I would first stress Toew's concerns about the judiciary, rather than portray him as picking a fight for the sake of a conflict.

I'm willing to include Toews' accusation. CJCurrie (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

(vi)

Compare my preferred version of the following paragraph with GoldDragon's preferred version:

Toews was accused of misusing the powers of his office on at least two occasions. In May 1998, he was criticized for asking a judicial appointment committee to add two names to a list of proposed judges. He denied any wrongdoing, and said he only acted to ensure that more bilingual judges would be appointed to the bench.^[18] The second controversy was potentially more serious. During a legislative debate in June 1999, Toews accused NDP Justice Critic Gord Mackintosh of repeatedly calling the province's Street Peace gang hotline, only to hang up before leaving a message. This announcement was not particularly noteworthy in and of itself, but questions soon arose as to how Toews had obtained the information as calls to the hotline were meant to be confidential and anonymous. He eventually acknowledged that calls from government buildings had been tracked, and that he had received Mackintosh's name from a member of his department. Premier Filmon described Toews's conduct as inappropriate, but did not remove him from office.^[19] Toews was also forced to admit that the hotline itself had gone unanswered for several months.

Well, there is the critism, so at least can we present a reason from Toews himself first? Its actually very POV-ish to jump into the criticism right off the start before establishing his position and views. Furthermore, there is a bias in the sources that CJCurrie uses exclusively, as "War with judges no-brainer for Toews" is likely an editorial. While editorials are permitted, there also must be a balancing viewpoint. I could make a charge of undue weight.

To be fair, Mackintosh engaged in mischief.

It's possible that Mackintosh was testing the system; if it was "mischief", it was trivial. Anyway, (i) I didn't actually use that particular editorial piece in the article, and (ii) I've already changed the wording to this section. CJCurrie (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

GoldDragon (talk) 02:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marital status

Isn`t Toews separated from his wife? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CFriesen68 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Yesterday, I provided Wikipedia readers with some information on the above topic. Less than 24 hours later the entire section was anonymously deleted without any explanation for the deletion. Nor were there any tags used to help me understand the nature of the disagreement. The protocol in Wikipedia is to use the discussion page to explain why edits are made. I graciously invite all editors to do so. Perhaps we can work something out that we can both agree on. This will prevent an endless and unproductive series of edits and counter edits. Thank you for listening and have a good day.Boyd Reimer (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Your edits have been, and continue to be, violations of Wikipedia's WP:NPOV and WP:RS policies. Again, on a personal basis I support and agree with your position on the matter, but Wikipedia is not the place to editorialize about what a politician's position should or shouldn't be. Wikipedia is not a forum for advocacy journalism; your personal opinion on Toews, and whether or not his position on granting refugee status to American military objectors is in conflict with his stated religious beliefs or not, has no place in the article until a major media source, such as the CBC or The Globe and Mail, calls him out on it. I've never voted Conservative in my life and don't plan to start anytime soon, so I'm not trying to defend Toews here. But Wikipedia simply is not the place for what you're trying to do — whether you and I agree with it or not, people are legitimately allowed to have a different position than yours on this issue. Bearcat (talk) 18:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Bearcat

Thank you for your explanation. I apologize. I agree with large parts of what you are saying. Therefore I will not again set up a section on “Religion.” Instead I have simply gone to the existing section on “Religion” in the Infobox and have done the following. A previous editor stated that the religion of Vic Toews was “Mennonite.”

On June 6, 2008, I spoke to Esther Epp-Tiessen from the Mennonite Central Committee who said, (quote) “I don’t think Vic Toews identifies with the Mennonite religion.” Those are not my words.

Therefore, I added a “citation needed” tag to the infobox section on “religion.”

That tag was removed within one hour of it being put there. I thought that Wikipedia welcomed citations and considered them a good thing. That is why I am wondering why some editor removed a request for a citation. (I will not assume that it was you.)

By the way, according to my understanding of religion, it is not inherited. Instead it is adopted. This is especially true of the Mennonite people who are part of the Anabaptist tradition. Boyd Reimer (talk) 15:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

How 'bout this one? [8] The CBC naming Toews as a Mennonite right next to his own (paraphrased) statement. The entry has been in this article without contest since Sep. 2006, so I'm thinking we'd more be looking for a quoted statement that he is not a Mennonite. Franamax (talk) 18:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Franamax: Wiktionary defines “Mennonite” as follows:

Mennonite 1. a group of denominations in the anabaptist movement in the Christian church 2. a member of such a denomination

[9]

The CBC quote you refered to refers to him as "of Mennonite descent." [10] That quote demonstrates that the CBC is unaware of the following:

The "Anabaptist movement" practices believers baptism “which contrasts with infant baptism.”[11] Therefore it is an intrinsic to the Mennonite faith that it is impossible to be “born” a Mennonite. By using the phrase "of Mennonite descent" the CBC has demonstrated that they are unaware that to be “born” a Mennonite is an oxymoron. That demonstration of their confusion casts much doubt on their later statement that Toews is "a Mennonite born in Paraguay"

Therefore a more reliable citation is needed. If Toews is a “member,” then which congregation has him registered as such? Boyd Reimer (talk) 21:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You are making a synthesis. We have a quote from a reliable source saying "Toews is himself a Mennonite", a source where Toews is commenting in obvious discussion with the reporter. If you don't think that's correct, produce a quote from a reliable, verifiable source that says "Toews is not a Mennonite". Your reference above is to a conversation you had with someone expressing an opinion. You need something better than that. Franamax (talk) 21:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Franamax: You have incorrectly quoted the CBC article. Your incorrect quote is this: “Toews is himself a Mennonite.” The correct quote is this: “Toews, himself of Mennonite descent…” The word “descent” is not in your incorrect quotation. The CBC’s use of that word was the whole point of my last entry. In fact the concept of generational “descent” is the entire context of the CBC article. Therefore please re-read your source quotation, and the context of the CBC article, and then reread my last entry about that correct quotation. Thank you.Boyd Reimer (talk) 22:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Curb your enthusiasm. Read the whole article, don't just stop at the spot where your own point is validated. I quoted with a word-twiddle, try this: "Toews himself is a Mennonite". It's actually there. I stand by every point I've made above. Franamax (talk) 04:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Franamax: I stand corrected. The quote is there. But what it actually means is still in question because of the article's context. Meaning (linguistics) is nothing without a context principle.

Does CBC use the word Mennonite to refer to religion? (“Religion” is the title of the infobox category.)

Or does CBC use the word Mennonite to refer to “ethnic group” or “immigration group?” (“ethnic group” and “immigration group” are not the titles of the infobox category.)

If we apply the context principle to the CBC article, I believe that the writer was referring to “Mennonite” as an “ethnic group” or “immigration group.” (Similar to Dukhobors)

The only way to be 100% certain that "Mennonite" is Toews' "religion," as stipulated by the title of the infobox category, is to know which congregation has him registered as a “member.” The word “member” is in the Wiktionary definition of “Mennonite.”

The uncertainty is still present. The best way to solve it is to let Wikipedia readers decide by providing them with a citation. Some editor (I won’t assume it was you) removed a “citation needed” tag without replacing it with a citation. That is not the policy of Wikipedia. Therefore I will put the citation in myself. Boyd Reimer (talk) 12:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think putting in the ref is a wise solution. I did find a few letters to the editor at www.thecarillon.com questioning Toews active participation in the religion, but nothing definitive one way or the other. Letting the reader decide is indeed the best way to go. I've also checked the list of Mennonites article and Toews is in the "connected to" section, so everything seems fine here now. Do you agree?

Note that if you click the "history" tab you can see who is making changes to the article, and you can click on each "diff" link to see the exact change. Also, it's good practice to indent comments on talk pages by putting ":"'s at the start of your text, it makes the progress of the discussion a little more clear. Franamax (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)