Talk:University of Maryland, Baltimore County

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• /Archive 1 - Feb 29, 2004 - (current)

Contents 1 School type 2 Attempt to reach consensus on location 3 My revisions 4 3rr for Slevit1? 5 Protected 6 How should UMBC be represented anyway? 7 motto 8 School Clubs 9 Departments 10 No comma again?

[edit] School type

Why is the school type "University of Maryland"? Shouldn't it be something like "state university"? WhisperToMe 14:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

It is University System of Maryland. I chose to do this because state universities in Maryland fall under two categories. The larger of the two is institutions of the University System of Maryland. This includes the entire list on that page and in the template at the bottom of UMBC's page. The second type are independent public institutions (Morgan State University and St. Mary's College of Maryland). Those are both listed as public independent on their pages. Similar work could be done with University of California and California State University, and the four state university systems in Texas. -Howardjp 15:00, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

There are more than four state university systems in Texas. UH Collegian 17:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I only knew of four (Texas A&M, University of Texas, Texas State, and University of Houston). Further information is welcome.  :) -Howardjp 19:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The other two systems are: University of North Texas System and Texas Tech University System. These two are smaller than the four you mentioned. Their schools are well-known in Texas as well, but not the systems. The rest of the schools in Texas not in these six systems are "independent", I guess that's what you would call it. UH Collegian 19:05, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, but "University System of Maryland" sounds more like something to put in a "university system" column than a type. WhisperToMe 18:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree, since University System of Maryland could be a private university system for someone not from Maryland. University System of Maryland doesn't denote anything being a state university system since there are private university systems in the United States. UH Collegian 18:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Because not all universities exist as part of a system, perhaps phrasing it as "Public, University System of Maryland" is in order. -Howardjp 19:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt to reach consensus on location

So far WhisperToMe and I have been in favor of indicating that UMBC is located in the census-designated place of Catonsville rather than Catonsville itself. I believe that Howardjp was trying to compromise when he indicated that such additional information belongs in the article text rather than the infobox. I would agree to such a compromise and I hope WhisperToMe would also. It has the advantages of keeping the infobox information simple while providing additional details in the article text. Comments? - Gauge 17:41, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The information absolutely has no place in the infobox. That said, I am inclined to say it doesn't belong in the main article body either (same goes for the Towson article). It's irrelevant. Whether or not the school resides in a municipality or not does not have a significant effect on the school itself. If I want more information on Catonsville, I can click on it and get it at that article. If there were important interactions between the school and the government (compare to the zoning situation between GWU and the District of Columbia), it would be useful. But in this case, and the towson case, it simple adds unnecessary clutter to the article. -Howardjp 20:28, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to place these details about the location of UMBC in the Catonsville article, then? - Gauge 04:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

That's a little vague. Let's see some sample language. -Howardjp 12:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

To appear in the section Catonsville#Education: "The University of Maryland Baltimore County is located approximately ten minutes driving time away from the community, but still within the Catonsville census-designated place and near the community of Arbutus." - Gauge 00:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I would drop ""census-designated place" in that sentence since the article introduction makes it clear it is a CDP. Then it's just redundant. I would do this: "The [[University of Maryland Baltimore County]] is located in Catonsville near the community of [[Arbutus, Maryland|Arbutus]]." But I think either would be acceptable. A reference to CCBC also needs to be added, but let's figure this out and use it as a model first. -Howardjp 00:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was attempting to convey that it is not in the community of Catonsville but is in the CDP, although I'm not sure whether we can make a clear distinction because of its unincorporated status. Besides this point, I like what you suggested. I only noticed today that the Catonsville article defines Catonsville alternatively as the community and as the CDP, so "Catonsville" in the infobox is fine by me. - Gauge 01:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My revisions

I've decided that I'm not going to bother signing my revisions (you may have already noticed this). I will not comment on the the location issue or the comma issue anymore. I have made my opinions known and I'm not going to argue it further. So what will I do? I will continue to revert the page back whenever someone decides to change what I have done. If a reasonable change occurs, I will of course leave it. But, if there are changes to the location, comma, steam tunnels, or anything else, it's gonna be revereted right back. Continue to call them vandalism if you want, but that does not change the fact that I will revert it back. I could argue just as easily that you are vandalizing. I am a student at the school and an employee of the school...don't bother editing the page if you are neither. Slevit1 01:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't tell people that. You wouldn't want people to think you're indicative of the quality of education at UMBC. -James Howard (talk/web) 02:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Slevit1: If this is really your stance on the issue then you have made things impossible to move forward toward a consensus. Consensus cannot be reached if you are not willing to discuss your edits with us. Your credentials mean absolutely nothing here; we all have just as much a right to the page as you do. Given that you have stated that you will not even discuss things further with us, it is more likely that you will be viewed as the vandal. I hope that you will come around and try to work productively here again. - Gauge 05:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I do not think it is possible to reach a concensus on the topics that I have issues with. They keep going back and forth, some people supporting me, some not. I have made my points clear and you have done the same. So, I will make each one one final time.

===Address===

Their mailing address indicated Baltimore, MD. Nowhere does UMBC advertise its being in Catonsville and the zip code is unique to UMBC. Although it is not in Baltimore City, UMBC is still in Baltimore. I have read your arguments and it seems that either Catonsville or Baltimore could proabably be used accurately. Therefore, we must determine which should be used on this page. Since UMBC clearly prefers to use Baltimore, and it is not incorrect to use, it seems to me that this is the one that should be used. To summarize this...The address says Baltimore, UMBC says Baltimore, it's not wrong to use Baltimore, I will continue to revert to Baltimore.

===Comma===

Again, either one could probably be used so the argument comes down to which should be used. UMBC clearly wants their name to be written "University of Maryland, Baltimore County" (if not simply UMBC). This is a page about the school, why not make it consistent with the school's wishes and how it would be seen advertised on any promotional literature?

I think i'm being perfectly reasonable in these arguments and my reasonings for them. No matter how many times this goes back and forth, my views will remain the same. It's a waste of time for me to keep this argument going, so as I said before, I won't. I will simply revert the page. Also as I said before, I will not revert any changes that actually add to the page, just these that we have been discussing.

Final topic...onto the Tunnels which Howard decided to change. That was the perfect place for a warning at it will remain in place. The page has apparently been edited by a couple of students trying to share the places that students are not supposed to access while lacking in useful information that this page should display. Students are not supposed to be in any of the tunnels on campus, but a large portion of the page covers them. This skews the page in a wrong direction. As they are, however, part of the campus, I did not delete the section altogether. Eventually, once I find more time, I'll add more useful information to the page. Slevit1 20:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You're all gonna love my newest edit...which I will, of course, continue to revert if you decide to change it. It is UMBC's official logo. I don't know where the other one came from, but it's gone now. Again, I changed it because it is a page about the school. This is the logo the school uses and this is the one anyone who visits or recieves information from the school will see. Therefore, this is the most logical one to have on the page and the one that would be most useful to anyone seeking information on the school. Slevit1 20:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3rr for Slevit1?

How does one request a banning? -James Howard (talk/web) 21:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You would need to make a listing at WP:AN/3RR in the future. By the way, I've protected this article so that you all can resolve this here on the talk page. Dmcdevit·t 01:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There's no discussion here so I'm unprotecting. Please remember to act in a civil manner, to resolve differences on this talk page, and to avoid edit wars. If you need to revert an article more than once a day, it's a sign that there's a problem and you should be discussing what you're doing and making an honest effort to meet objections. I'll be watching. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 11:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I've already made an honest effort to explain why they are wrong (see one section up). They don't seem to want to listen and therefore, an edit war occurs. I feel that to repeat the same point over and over again would be useless. This is why discussion has not continued. It was a noble effort though, having the page locked. Very tricky, however unsuccessful it may have been. Slevit1 05:46, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I've listened. I have also conclusively demonstrated why your edits are wrong. This is not simply a matter of opinion; Wikipedia is supposed to be a journal of fact and your edits are not based in fact. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

As you are wrong, you could not have possibly conclusively demonstrated that I am wrong. My edits are based in fact. UMBC is NOT located in Catonsville. Being located adjacent to something does not make you part of it. UMBC is also adjacent to Arbutus, but it's not in Arbutus. I'm sorry that you think Baltimore County is too broad, but UMBC happens to be in Baltimore County!! And, not surprisingly, Baltimore County is part of BALTIMORE!68.48.93.15 00:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Rather than being a jerk, as I previously had posted, I would like to invite you to again try to make your case. You have failed to present any evidence of your claim. Were you able to justify your position, you would be taken seriously. -James Howard (talk/web) 03:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Article is now protected due to recurrent vandalism. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 08:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This article currently uses Template:USM Taxobox, a fork of Template:USM taxobox in which the location is hardcoded to Catonsville, Maryland, USA. As a result my changing Catonsville to Baltimore County in the infobox had no effect. I was proposing BC on the grounds it matches the University name and because more precision (Catonsville CDP, Baltimore Co) requires too much space for an infobox, is too much information for a summary, and is unnecessary as it is stated in the text. Rd232 ^talk 13:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Baltimore County is too broad, as that is also where Towson University is. -James Howard (talk/web) 21:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, there is no vandalism, simply a difference of opinion. In this case, Howard happens to be wrong. If you want to protect the page, protect it with the correct information!!

[edit] How should UMBC be represented anyway?

Slevit1 writes: This is a page about the school, why not make it consistent with the school's wishes and how it would be seen advertised on any promotional literature?

This is a good question, and one which applies throughout Wikipedia. The basic answer is that X does not get the final word as to how X is represented in Wikipedia, whether X is UMBC, Microsoft, or George W. Bush.

UMBC's web site, press releases, style guide, etc. are useful, of course, but researchers should distinguish among

1. information that is acceptable at face value because it is trivially verifiable (who the president is, who won the basketball game last night)
2. information that is acceptable despite nontrivial verifiability, because there are standards for reporting it (tuition, enrollment, demographics, accreditation)
3. information that is official in nature and that therefore really is up to UMBC itself (slogan, logo, name, policies, department structure)
4. everything else: information which could be presented in more than one way, which UMBC would presumably present in a way favorable to UMBC (campus life, academics, athletics, ranking, reputation, student groups, technology, funding priorities), and which therefore bears further reporting

And let's add a category which is not available from UMBC sources:

5. information UMBC would oppose the publishing of (controversial decisions, location of steam tunnel entrances, how to sneak into the dorms, details of Hrabo's personal life)

If you buy into this breakdown, then information of types (1), (2), and (3) are all okay for inclusion in the article, though verifying through other sources is always good.

(4) should be written carefully, with Wikipedia guidelines on Verifiability and Neutral point of view in mind. Wikipedia is neither an advertisement nor a soapbox.

(5) is a special case. Controversial issues should not be shied away from; Wikipedia has Guidelines for controversial articles. It's a judgment call, and "UMBC thinks people shouldn't know this" is, in itself, neither an argument against nor an argument for covering a given topic.

So...

The Comma

Seems to fall under category 3... but UMBC doesn't seem to have a consistent preference. So, it's category 4, and we get to have debates about official sources, style guides, etc. Fine.

The location

Seems to fall under category 1 but is really category 4.

It's not category 1 because how regions relate to other regions is actually pretty complicated, and the USPS naming system is a special case of that [1]. Location is not the same as mailing address. And Baltimore and Catonsville work equally well to get mail delivered to UMBC.

It is category 4 because, given that there are multiple possible designations, the motivations of UMBC in using one over the other (and on this matter, they are consistent) must be examined:

Hypothesis 1: Baltimore is more spatially accurate.

• No. This point is not seriously arguable without first establishing that people refer to Baltimore County as "Baltimore".

Hypothesis 2: Catonsville is technically not a valid mailing location.

• Maybe this is true. But it works fine as a mailing location anyway, so it's pretty moot... and anyway it depends on the implicit premise that location is the same as mailing address.

Hypothesis 3: Baltimore sounds better.

• The most plausible. Catonsville is unknown to the wider world. Baltimore is more useful to most of the world as a description of approximate location, and also implies nightlife, major league sports, culture, and all that great stuff you get in cities.

This got pretty didactic and long, so I'll sum up:

1. UMBC is not the final arbiter of information about UMBC.
2. We should be thinking about bias, implications, and unspoken premises whenever we do any research and writing.

For the record, I have two degrees from UMBC, and am all in favor of their improving the image they project to the world, as long as it's all above board.

Matuszek 22:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Which two?  :) -James Howard (talk/web) 01:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Since I am thinking about it, I want to throw something at hypothesis 3 and see if it sticks: By analogy, both MIT and Harvard should list Boston, yes? Both list Cambridge as their location. Just a question. -James Howard (talk/web) 01:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

BS and MS in computer science. :)

This is a topic that I was going to get more into... UMBC is trying to improve its image because it has to. It is relatively young and unknown. MIT and Harvard don't have that problem; in fact, the prestige flows the other way (Cambridge is known because of them). Similarly with, say, the University of North Carolina: no point in claiming to be near Raleigh when the school itself has already made Chapel Hill famous.

So every company or institution has an interest in promoting a certain image of itself, but some are actively working on specific changes, while others are just tending the fire...

I checked out Harvard's talk page and they have some of the same arguments about boosters and badmouthers. Go figure. Matuszek 02:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe there's still debate about UMBC's location. As I said nearly a year ago: until UMBC got its own unique ZIP code, UMBC used the Catonsville ZIP code of 21228, and listed its location as Catonsville. (Old stationery and asset tags at UMBC say Catonsville.) UMBC probably decided to refer to itself as being in Baltimore for recognition. (Note that in both Catonsville and Arbutus -- ZIP codes 21228 and 21227 -- it is acceptable to write Baltimore as the city when addressing mail. Nonetheless, neither is within Baltimore City.) tooki 06:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. To say that UMBC is in Baltimore is a misrepresentation, even if it is an official one. Baltimore City limits are a good five minutes down Wilkens, at least three miles away, I would say. UMBC is in Catonsville by all geogrpahical definitions and should be represented as such. Additionally:

-"Baltimore is more useful to most of the world as a description of approximate location, and also implies nightlife, major league sports, culture, and all that great stuff you get in cities."

--well, that would just be a lie. Everyone knows there's no night life at UMBC. :) Fearwig 15:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] motto

What's up with "Fatti maschii, parole femine" as UMBC's motto? I understand it's the motto of the state. But I've never see it associated with UMBC. UMBC has been using the slogan or tag line "An honors university in Maryland" for over 10 years. It's more than an empty slogan -- it is part of a campaign to attract good students through special programs, scholarships and targeted recruiting. It's been suceessful when measured by any of several typical metrics, such as the average SAT scores of incoming freshman.

It's the motto of USM, and all USM institutions inherit it. As I said before, marketing gimmicks are not mottoes. -James Howard (talk/web) 03:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. Two questions come to mind. (1) what's your source on the motto of the UMS? I've not found anything on USMD.EDU. (2) What's your source on the idea that all USM institution inherit the motto of USM? Since the USM was created in 1988 and all of its member institutions predate it, I'd suspect that having the USM define or redifine mottos, official or unofficial, is unlikely.

Actually, I did some more research, and what I said before may not be entirely accurate. It gets a little complicated. However, the only reasonable arguments are either "Fatti maschii, parole femine" or none at all. I'll post more details tonight (EDT) or tomorrow. -James Howard (talk/web) 12:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the alleged motto, since the evidence that it is UMBC's motto is circumstantial. A much stronger case can be made, IMHO, for "An honors university in Maryland". Mottos don't have to be old. Mottos don’t have to be in Latin or some other language. Mottos are probably always chosen for marketing reasons. Mottos can be changed. The people entrusted with running the institution are usually the ones who choose the motto. Of course, an outpouring of sentiment by the community one way or the other makes a difference. The administration has been using "An honors university in Maryland” for the past ~10 years as the official tagline for UMBC. I don’t recall any other slogan or tag line being used before that, though my knowledge only goes back to 1991. A good person to ask about this would be Professor Ed Orser of the American Studies department. He was one of the organizers of the UMBC oral history project some years ago. Tim 00:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I did something smart. I emailed the University archivist this morning. We'll see what he/she comes back with. -69.243.87.240 00:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Archivist contacted me and, as dumb as it is, "An honors university in Maryland" is it. -69.243.87.240 22:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you also ask the Archivist about where UMBC is located and whether or not the comma should be in our name? Tim 16:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] School Clubs

Can school clubs be moved to a different linked entry? They're transient and insignificant enough that they should not be in the main entry, and so verbose that they take up at least half of its text. --Vees 17:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a school club, but it has since been deleted. how can I get it so it stays?

76.21.148.73 04:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Todd Blatt 76.21.148.73 04:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)UMBC Go Club President

I moved all the clubs into University of Maryland Baltimore County student organizations, which is the way that Rutgers University article handles its myriad student organizations. Vees 04:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Departments

Do we really need a section for each department? Seems excessive. --AW 17:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think we need large descriptions for each department, but the current list has been incomplete for a while.

Also do we really need the huge chart of majors and programs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.249.218 (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No comma again?

I thought this debate (which started three years ago by the way), was over when the page was finally moved to the correct title, and now it's back here? So are we just going to ignore the school's MoS or what?-Jeff ^(talk) 02:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

User: Finin showed me this, looks like we should just move it back to the comma, I'm just not sure how. Jussen (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

That's the MoS I was referring to. That, and the school's website both agree with the comma usage. In fact, the only reason that this page is here is that one user insists that the school does not use a comma in its name, contrary to this evidence. Yeah, it's lame discussing something as minor as this, but I think it's equally lame to have a page sit at a title that most users, as well as the school itself, do not agree with. Anyway, for help moving pages see Help:Moving a page-Jeff ^(talk) 04:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless there are any objections, I'll go ahead and move this page, possibly as early as tonight.-Jeff ^(talk) 17:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)