Talk:Spearchucker Jones

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RE: "Spearchucker" in M*A*S*H reference that the character was dropped because there were no Black doctors in the Korean War: My father-in-law, Captain Frank E. Woodson, was a physician in the Korean War and then an Emergency Room doctor in a Tokyo hospital for 3 years after the war. Our family has photo slides of his service time that includes both of these venues. The writers of M*A*S*H should have done better homework.

If any reader has information/stories about our father, please email them to karizon@msn.com.

Thank you, Kari Woodson

If you read closely the statement is that there were no black surgeons during the Korean War, thus the M*A*S*H writers were correct by your own admission. RasputinAXP 16:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it very likely that the MASH people dropped Spearchucker because they never were very interested in him in the first place; about all he does in the first season is take naps. The "no black surgeons" reason was likely just a pretext for dropping an already superfluous character, allowing them to focus more on Hawkeye, with Trapper as his only sidekick. I'm sure if they found out that there were no Australian anesthesiologists in the Korean War, that would have been the reason given for dropping Ugly John. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 17:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] There actually were some black surgeons in Korea apparently

From what I understand Frank E. Woodson actually was not just a doctor, but a surgeon during the Korean War. At least that's what is claimed over in the "www.koreanwar.org.

Captain Frank Woodson, surgeon 8167th Army Hospital Tokyo, Doc" Woodson--black surgeon in Korea and in Tokyo

Plus I know of at least one more black korean surgeon during the war, Dr. W. Ferguson Reid, who was a surgeon in a medical unit in korea in the first marine division during the conflict. So Kari Woodson's complaint is actually quite valid. I'm interested in if these are the only two people who were overlooked or if there were others... At least from one or both of those examples the idea that there were "no black surgeons in the korean conflict" seems to be misinformation, and a mistake in itself.

Now if the original quote was specifically "No M*A*S*H Units in the American army" then Reid's existence would have no baring on the issue.

However I've heard various claims to what the original quote was, that it was "no black surgeons in korean conflict", to "no black surgeons in korea itself", to "no black surgeons in the army during the korean conflict", to "no black surgeons in M*A*S*H units in Korea", etc, so the real question is what was the original quote made by the producers?

Plus wasn't the author of the original M*A*S*H books in a M*A*S*H unit? Didn't he base the book off of his own experiances to a certain degree? Who would have have based his character of Spearchucker off of?69.225.9.90 17:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The Woodson attestation isn't authoritative (even if it's correct). Reid was a Marine, so no bearing on Mobile Army Surgical Hospitals. The Army apparently took quite a bit longer to integrate and there were segregated Army units to the end of the conflict [1], so to some extent the statement may be true. In any case, we don't need to prove or disprove a negative; we only need to show that the producers believed it was true. As such we should be looking for reliable claims regarding why the character was dropped. This question is more appropriately part of Military history of African Americans. --Dhartung | Talk 18:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ya like I said, if the original quote made by the producers was specifically about "M*A*S*H", then existence of Reid would have no baring on the topic, it would be unrelated. The thing is I've heard different people quote the producers "No blacks" quote differently, and each version of the quote have slightly different conentations, thus why I want to know what the original quote actually was? Even this wiki article claims the quote was;

the United States Army had no African-American surgeons in the Korean Conflict

If that was the original quote, it has nothing to do with M*A*S*H and infact is much broader subject of the Army in general. Again, in which case Reid would still have no baring on the subject since he's a Marine. However I've read other versions of the quote attesting that it was "The United States military had no African American surgeons in the Korean Conflict" to "No African-Americans in M*A*S*H Units", etc.

Ya, even if the Woodson thing is true it is not authoritive. I sure would like to know what books the producers were basing what they believed on. The question actually fascinates me and I wish I could look more into the issue, but it seems there really isn't many sources out there that even bring up the issue at all... Internet is a relative dead end.69.225.9.90 04:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

(Please try to use preview mode so your edits can be more easily followed in the edit history.) Well, I maintain that the real reason was a) they couldn't figure out how to use the character often enough (the usual reason), b) using him more would have meant more "race" issues in the show, c) the name Spearchucker just wasn't socially acceptable on TV, even in a black comedy. In any case, I have one book citation for the claim about the producers. --Dhartung | Talk 05:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"I have one book citation for the claim about the producers"

Ya? What does the book specifically say? I only ask cause different people have claimed different quotes in these articles in the past, and the real quote should be the one that was quoted, and cited, if you know what I mean? Cause I'm pretty sure the quote in the article is wrong, I.E. the quote that says "the United States Army had no African-American surgeons in the Korean Conflict".69.225.9.90 06:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Captain Oliver Wendell Jones

I am deeply disturbed by the fact that this article revolves around the character according to the M*A*S*H TV Series. As far as I'm concerned, the character was created by H. Richard Hornberger and therefore this article should be based on the character which appeared in the creator's three books; M*A*S*H, M*A*S*H Goes to Maine and M*A*S*H Mania, instead of a character who was quickly dropped from the series which was eminently disliked by the original author.

If no-one complains in a month's time, then this article will be based on the original character. Any information on the absence of African-American doctors in Korea can then be relegated to the M*A*S*H TV Series article. I'm sure that the late Richard Hornberger wouldn't want someone else's character replacing the one which he created on the world's foremost free encyclopedia. Harlsbottom 14:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You're taking this a bit strongly, don't you think? They're comic novels, not holy scripture. The character's treatment in the books deserves mention and I'm sure adding that in will be appreciated, but the movie and TV character also deserves mention -- and is much better known. --Dhartung | Talk 08:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)