Talk:Slavonia

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In high medieval Slavonian borders were Sutla, Drava, Sava and Dunav (I don't know if the syrmian border was only nominal, or not). Karlovac was latter center of Croatian fronier, as it was part of central Croatia, and not Slavonian one. I added part about Hungarians heirs and creation of Banovina of Slavonia. Also some parts of northern Bosnia have been part of it (parts of Soli end Usora), as first bosnian borders were very much in the southern mountins:) Added part how Habsurgs came to power. Changed some parts about recent history (hope I wan't been flamed about this:) Ceha

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I already showed to you historical maps of the Medieval Kingdom of Hungary where the province of Slavonia included only the western part of what is now Slavonia. I do not understand what is a problem here? If that were borders of Slavonia in that time, that should be mentioned in the article. PANONIAN (talk) 00:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

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Also, I do not see the relevance of writting about Croatia under Habsburgs if Croatia in that time did not included this region. The history should be either about the region of present-day Slavonia either about the medieval province of Slavonia (but only until it was called by that name). PANONIAN (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

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See this:

• "In the 12th century there was a practice that succesor of the trone first became Herzeg of Croatia (like the oldest British prince is prince of Wales), and there were some power grabs since in many cases son waged war against father, trying to establish and confirm its power base."

I really do not see why this is relevant for this article, it is like we have a task to write about dog, but we write about cat instead, does it? PANONIAN (talk) 01:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Serbs are not majority in Slavonia now, neither in 1790

The 1790 Austrian population census for the Kingdom of Slavonia recorded 131,000 (46.8%) Serbs 128,000 (45.7%) Croats, 19,000 (6.8%) Hungarians, and 2,000 (0.7%) Germans. The Kingdom of Slavonia in this time also included northern parts of eastern Syrmia mainly inhabited by Serbs, hence the number of Serbs in the Kingdom was larger than the number of Croats. - It was written by some of those serbian guys. This article hasn't any references and it is half-truth. I suggest that admins put on it {{Template:Neutral}} or reference missing -- Croat 00:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it was written by 4 Hungarian historians in "Istorija Mađara" (Beograd, 2002) - I only translated this info. I can post this reference into article if you want? PANONIAN 18:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok post that reference into article (ali i ja i ti znamo da srbi nikad nisu bili većina u slavoniji). -- Croat 16:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I will post the source but this data do not show population of what is today considered Slavonia, but of former Kingdom of Slavonia that also included Serbian part of Syrmia. PANONIAN 21:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Windischland -> Slavonia, or Slovenia?

Hmm? Wasn't Slavonia traditionally called Windischland by the Germans? Since when does Windisch mean Croat or Serb? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.218.98.194 (talk) 13:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Because "Windisch = Ursprünglicher deutscher Begriff für slawisch („wendisch“) = old German word for Slavic". It means that "Windischland" is direct translation of "Slavonia" ("Land of Slavs"). --Plantago 12:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Sory mate, Windisch in German means this: [1]. Croats are called Kroaten and Serbs are called Serben in German, not Winden/Windische. 218.137.104.169 10:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Right so, to quote linked page: " Windische Sprache als historischer Begriff: Das in Österreich gebräuchliche Wort Windisch ist, ebenso wie das in Nord- und Ostdeutschland übliche wendisch, eine ursprüngliche deutsche Bezeichnung für Slawen, analog zu dem für Romanen gebräuchlichen Ausdruck Welsche. In Südösterreich wurde der Begriff für die Slowenen gebräuchlich. Diese Volksgruppe zählt heute zu den Minderheiten in Österreich. Als in Tübingen im sechzehnten Jahrhundert von Primož Trubar das erste slowenische Druckwerk der Geschichte erschien, trug es den deutschen Titel Catechismus in der windischen Sprach." (end quote) So, if you understand German, you can see confirmation of my statement. Only later this word got meaning Slovenian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plantago (talk • contribs) 08:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Although my German is indeed a little bit rusty, I nevertheless understand the meaning of: Als Windisch werden die in Südkärnten gesprochenen Varietäten der slowenische Sprache bezeichnet. As well as of: Windische Bühel ist die deutsche Bezeichnung für einen heute zum größten Teil in Slowenien liegenden Hügelzug in der ehemaligen Untersteiermark (slowenisch: Slovenske Gorice). The article also says: Windische Mark ist die historische Bezeichnung zur Zeit der Donaumonarchie für eine Gegend in Unterkrain (heute Slowenien).

In the Windische Mark article [2] it is said: Die Windische Mark (Slovenska krajina, Slovenska marka) ist ein historisches Gebiet im Mittelalter auf dem Gebiet des heutigen Slowenien. And further on: Das Territorium wurde nach den "windischen" Stämmen, den Vorfahren der heutigen Slowenen, benannt. As well as: Schon 631 wird in der Fredegar-Chronik erstmals eine "marcha Winedorum", eine windische Mark, genannt, die sich damals allerdings auf Gesamt-Karantanien bezog. So the name was used for predecessors of modern Slovenes in the year 631 already.

See where this link [3] redirects. Also, the city of Windischgrätz – does it mean ‘Slavic’ Gradec or does it mean Slovenj Gradec [4]? How about Windisch-Feistritz? Is it called Slovenska Bistrica [5] or ‘Slavic’ Bistrica? Similarly, the Austrian city of Matrei [6] was called Windisch-Matrei until the 20th century. Does it mean Slavic-Matrei? When one thus eliminates Slovenes from history and geography, a question inevitably arises – who were these Slavs from Slavic-Matrei. Were they Alpine Croats or were they Alpine Serbs or maybe Alpine Ukrainians?

Perhaps you should check the talk page in Pannonian Croatia article [7]. Some anonymous user provided a translation there of a few quotes from a book written by Antol Vramec in 1587. There Vramec, who was writing in Slavonian dialect of the time, wrote (line 1455) the Slavonian name for themselves – Szlouenczi. Does Szlouenczi also mean Slavs? As far as I know Szlouenczi means Slovenes in Slovene and Croat languages. Therefore, in the name Windischland the term Windisch means exactly the same as in the historical name Windische Mark and in such toponyms as Windisch-Feistritz. 125.14.156.206 15:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

First of all, your contribution is WP:OR. I don't know your background, but I see your are Anon, and AFAIK contribution in Talk:Pannonian_Croatia is also yours. Your argumentation comes from ignorance, not knowledge. In a few words: different Slavic nations call/called themselves "Slovenci". Nowadays, Slovenians and Slovakians, two different nations, are calling themselves the same name. Earlier, inhabitants of Slavonia also also called themselves "Slovenians", and later "Slavonians". Now for name "Slovenci" versus "Croats": nations in modern sense are product of 18/19th century. Before that differentiation was by language, religion and state (country). As semi-independent kingdom was called Kingdom of Slavonia, I see no contradiction. At the time before Hungarians came to Pannonia there was great Moravian kingdom, part of which become todays Slovakia. It had bordered Slavonia. Does it mean that inhabitants of Slavonia or even Slovenia are maybe Slovaks? I have never ever said anything about Slovenj Gradec or any other place, so you are just putting words in my mouth trying to proclaim me as greater something (Croat?, Serb?, whatever). Quite opposite, you made claims regarding Slavonia, so please, if you have ANY relevant source claiming that people from Slavonia were Slovenes in any time feel free to cite it, otherwise let's stop this ridiculous discussion.--Plantago 10:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)