Talk:Siege of Ma'arrat al-Numan

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Contents 1 Info Box 2 misquote? 3 Now how is this article in anyway nuetral or balanced? 4 Attempting to rewrite 5 Image:CrusadersThrowingHeadsOfMuslimsOverRamparts.jpg

[edit] Info Box

I added one and reorganized the article a bit. Xelnanga 01:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] misquote?

A quote in the article reads "In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults alive in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled." However, this source (http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/cannibalism.html) has it as "In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled." How did the 'alive' get put in there? I've googled both quotes- while a source cited in the article, an indepdendant Utah news site contains the alive, I found many more which did not. I'm removing the 'alive' for now, if you object please post here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.70.254.85 (talk) 03:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. The French original (quoted in Maalouf) does not say "alive": "Les nôtres faisaient bouillir des païens adultes dans les marmites, ils fixaient les enfants sur des broches et les dévoraient grillés." Maalouf, p.55 PHG (talk) 05:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"For reasons of hunger or fanaticism the Franks resorted to widespread cannibalism." Fanaticism? --Wetman (talk) 12:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Maalouf's exact words are "Cannibales par nécessité? Cannibales par fanatisme?" p.56. PHG (talk) 19:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, why is Maalouf being used (again...) when there are so many other better sources? The First Crusade is well-covered even in popular literature. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

As always, other sources are welcome. PHG (talk) 19:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Now how is this article in anyway nuetral or balanced?

To make this article truly neutral. Please add more people than this one biased guy and a website. For if you don’t take action than I surely will in providing a genuinely balanced article.--GunneySarge —Preceding unsigned comment added by GunneySarge (talk • contribs) 00:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You should probably leave that to someone else, unless you can do it more competently than your other edits. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attempting to rewrite

Since this was based almost entirely on the unreliable Maalouf book, I've started to rewrite it. I started off with Thomas Asbridge since that is the most recent book about the First Crusade. There is still much to be done though; the amount of literature on this event alone is rather large. We'll have to look through the usual primary sources as well. Albert of Aix is already quoted; Robert the Monk also has one sentence about the cannibalism. Ibn al-Athir and Ibn al-Qalanisi, however, say nothing about it. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Some more info (some of the primary sources must be different editions): Tyerman lists Gesta Francorum pg. 80, Raymond of Aguilers pg. 81, Guibert of Nogent pp. 241-42, the Chanson d'Antioche, L.A.M. Sumberg's article in Medieval Studies (1959, pp. 224-246) "The Tafurs and the First Crusade".

Asbridge says Raymond of Aguilers pg. 101, Fulcher of Chartres pp. 266-67, Gesta Francorum pg. 80, Peter Tudebode pp. 124-5, and M. Rouche "Cannibalisme sacré chez les croisés populaires" in La Religion populaire by Y-M Hillaire, pg. 29-41.

Riley-Smith has a sentence about it and his footnote lists Raymond of Aguilers pp. 94-96, Tudebode pp. 121 and 124-5, Gesta Francorum pg. 80, Fulcher of Chartres pp. 266-67, Albert of Aix pg. 450, Ekkehard of Aura pg. 209, and Hagenmeyer's Kreuzzugsbriefe pg. 170. He calls Rouche's interpretation "interesting but unlikely". I'll look these up when I get a chance. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Adam. Thank you for the great additional info. May I ask you however why you deleted reference to Amin Maalouf, and got rid of all the inline refs? Regards. PHG (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Well all the inline refs were to Maalouf...he's just not a very good reference, and we can do much better. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not quite, there was also a reference to Lebedel. I am not sure it is right to eliminate an important reference such as Amin Maalouf (although you may of course wish to complement him with "better" references) and erase all existing inline references. This is rather destructive. You are not placing any new inline references either... Regards PHG (talk) 07:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not yet, no, but I'm getting to it. Maalouf isn't that important. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:CrusadersThrowingHeadsOfMuslimsOverRamparts.jpg

Hi. Although commons doesn't offer many details on its description, I'm fairly certain that this image is an illuminure of the Siege of Nicaea, where the sources even mention catapulting the heads of the enemies into the city. Could someone check and eventually remove the image from this article to include it on the Siege of Nicaea? Thanks --200.138.248.37 (talk) 22:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)