Talk:Satchel Paige
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[edit] Dates
Um...the dates can't be right here...2006?
[edit] Templates
Need to change all the ndash templates to mdash templates...
[edit] Teams
Paige pitched one season for the St. Louis Stars in the 1920s, which you can verify online at numerous sources (such as http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sbnslegends/id6.html). Unfortunately, I can't locate the exact year right now and don't know how to add teams to the little graphic thing.
[edit] Pitch names
Article had "Midnight Creeper" and "Four-Day Rider". I changed to "Midnight Rider" (which was his fastball) and "Four-Day Creeper" (his change-up). That's what they were referred to in the Ken Burns "Baseball" series, and I think that's right, but I'm not 100% sure. Justin Bailey 17:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Birth Date
According to the 1910 census of Ward 10 in Mobile, Alabama (microfilm series T624, roll 27, page 283), Leroy Page (son of John whose wife is Lula) was 4 years old. If his birthday really was 7 July and the census accurate, then his birth year would have been 1905.
In 1920, the census pages for the Alabama Reform School for Juvenile Negro Lawbreakers (later called the "Industrial School for Negro Children") include the following note written at the top of the enumerations: "under 16 average 13 yrs no exact record". Leroy Page is listed as 13 years old, for what it's worth. Ardric47 07:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Having spent some years researching census records, I can say with confidence that as far as birthdates go, almost ALL censuses must be taken with a grain of salt. It's just as possible that John Page wasn't absolutely certain of his son's age when asked by a census taker, but knew that "young Leroy was born in 1906, and it's now 1910, which makes him four". That census was taken on 21 April 1910, which would have been less than three months from the actual anniversary. While this is only a theory, it is as valid as assuming the census to be absolutely accurate. Couillaud 15:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- Right. I didn't intend to endorse a conclusion. Ardric47 04:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Huuh?
"Paige had a league best 8-10 record" How can the best record be below .500? Clarityfiend 12:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Should something related to this be in the article?
William "Plunk" Drake was a negro league baseball player. He was born June 8, 1895. His career spanned from 1914 to the late 1920's. He even played against white competition which was very rare at the time for African Americans. He died October 30, 1977. Taught Satchel Paige his famous Hesitation Pitch.
--71.36.251.182 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It's unconfirmed whether Paige was taught the hesitation pitch by Drake or by "Big Bill" Gatewood. Drake claimed until the end of his life that it was he who taught the pitch to Paige, but there is evidence indicating Gatewood as well. Couillaud 02:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Birthdate
Please, please, please don't start yet another edit war. Every source around has Paige's birthdate as July 7, 1906, including his own autobiography. If you can cite sources questioning it, and with valid reasons to question it, fine. But to say that it's absolutely "unknown" is absolutely false. Baseball Bugs 03:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- There is nothing in the article that provides a counterclaim to July 7, 1906. Baseball Bugs 03:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- This is going to be like the edit war over his birth name of "Page" vs. "Paige". I finally inserted a comment directly into the text to ask people not to keep changing the name before reading the next three paragraphs, and so far the war seems to have quieted down. Perhaps you need to do the same for his birth date.
- Jeez, is this like those who keep inserting "allegedly still alive" into Paul McCartney's entry?
- -- Couillaud 03:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Baseball BugsI am not about to start another revert war, you are. I was in the middle of typing this when you engaged in another revert. I am about done with you on all fronts until you show a reasonable amount of responsible behavior. There is a citation for it (it's that little one next to the dates) and that information is sourced from a very reliable source. Even if that site is typographically incorrect (as in it should say 1906 instead of 1905), it clearly asserts that his birthdate is unknown. I have been looking through wikipedia for the criteria on how to effectively format this information, but this explains his birthday is factually unknown. As i do not have access to his autobiography at this time, I have to go on the resources available. Most database driven statistic sites are not going to be reliable sources because they do not allow for notations of that sort. I am actively looking for more information on this (as i am the one who inserted it). But for someone who has argued for the inclusion of a source on Will Ferrell's page (yes I saw that) and for a citation for "The Georgia Peach", your actions here are inconsistent with your behavior in the past and are taking on a seemingly personal nature.//Tecmobowl 03:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Couillaud The damn thing has a source - it's that one next to the birthdate. I am sorry if that sounds condescending, but the citation is right there. //Tecmobowl 03:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- The "source" is a website that claims his birthdate is "estimated to be" and that statement was lifted into the previous version of the article. But where are they getting that from? All the sources say, unequivocally, July 7, 1906. Paige himself stated that date. What does that website know that Paige didn't know? Baseball Bugs 04:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Tecmobowl, having a dispute on the birthdate does NOT mean it is "Unknown". "Unknown" connotes we don't have a clue as to when someone was born or something happened. The best information (from Paige's family, from census records, etc.) is that Paige was born in 1906. There is a dispute in some records indicating 1905. The day and month of his birth is not in dispute at all, and the year is likely 1906, though it MIGHT be 1905. The terminology "unknown" is not appropriate here. -- Couillaud 04:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Baseball Bugs You are saying that SatchelPaige.com (his official website) lifted it's biography from wikipedia? I find that hard to believe. I do agree that there is a typographical error in the year, but the fact remains the same: The birthdate is not known. Here is the direct quote: "It is estimated that Leroy "Satchel" Paige was born on July 7, 1905." Here are some other sites that support the claim: about.com article, site 2, and this one. Are you seriously going to start this type of argument. If you want to add a sentence early on (or perhaps a citation note by the actual date) that it is often stated as 1906 ... then go ahead. But you really need to do your homework. His autobiography, which could be interpreted as extremely biased, is not going to be the best source for this information. //Tecmobowl 04:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Couillaud - site 2 this article]], named as site two above, which i used in my research before making the change, states "that Controversy has surrounded the issue Paige's age throughout his career, and his date of birth has been placed as early as December 18, 1899 and as late as July 7, 1906". That's about as unknown as it can be.//Tecmobowl 04:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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- What is your factual basis, if any, for stating that his autobiography is "extremely biased"? Baseball Bugs 04:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Please read what I said. //Tecmobowl 04:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- The phraseology "it is estimated" was lifted from another site into wikipedia, not the other way around. Meanwhile, although those various sites make broad statements about a possible range of years, I'm not seening where they're getting them from. As Paige said 45 years ago, there are plenty of dates floating around. So what? The only reliable date is 7-7-06. That's what the Hall of Fame says, and it's what various encyclopedias say. I'm sure that this ongoing debate over an already-settled issue is very amusing to Bill and Satch as viewed from their heavenly dugout. Baseball Bugs 04:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- What is your factual basis, if any, for stating that his autobiography is "extremely biased"? Baseball Bugs 04:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Tecmobowl, I believe that you are making the mistake of giving equal weight to every claim on his birthdate. 1899 is NOT a possibility, or Leroy Page would have shown up on the 1900 census with his parents John and Lula; he does not. The Pages had a daughter, Julia, born in May 1900, making another child in July 1900 pretty unlikely as well. The most common and best-supported date is July 7, 1906, even in the three web articles you cited, and his family celebrated his 100th birthday last year. 1906 might not be the correct date (that IS possible, though unlikely at present), but it is the ACCEPTED date, by the Hall of Fame, by SABR, and by Paige's family, and it is what we should use, unless you have strong evidence to the contrary. -- Couillaud 04:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Baseballbugs I just can't seem to have a logical discussion with you so i'm going to move on. If we are discussing the merits of one date of birth over another, then finding multiple examples are extremely important.
- Couillaud. That's a great point about the 1899 birthdate; however, there are a couple of things to address. My point wasn't simply that he could have been born in 1900, but that his birthdate is unknown. Your logic in that example is spot on (quite seriously it is), but that is technically OR (although I'd just call it common sense hehe). I looked on the SABR website for a biography page on him and did not find one. The hall of fame using that date does not necessarily mean that was his birthdate. It's a good site and often sourced and site, but it doesn't establish that there are not a number of other reasonable sources (the people responsible for his estate that is) which state otherwise. I think what we're dealing with here is two separate issues..1) What format should we use for relaying this information 2) What do we actually state. For example, maybe "unknown", is the best word. Perhaps we should say: (Estimated at July 7, 2006–June 8, 1982)[1][2]. One citation could be used to provide the actual source of that information and the other could be used to further explain the controversy. Then again, we could keep it referenced as is and also add a section that explains why it is estimated. I agree with you on the census logic as well. However, I have no earthly idea on how to check the information. If there is no birth certificate for him, do they list him as a person that was born that year? //Tecmobowl 04:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- But there is a birth certificate—I'm looking at a photo of it opposite page 145 of his autobiography, and it says "July 7, 1906." Of course, birth records aren't always accurate either, but it's better documentation than we have for lots of other old-time baseball players. BRMo 05:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Now that's good information, sorry - i don't have his autobiography. So if there is a bc, why was there ever a debate? I don't know anything about the process of documenting ones birth, so what do we do with this? //Tecmobowl 05:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it's in there. That's the document Paige talked about in that excerpt, and which Veeck used to justify his claim that Paige was born before 1900, supposedly because records weren't kept until after 1900, or some such. One thing Paige only hints at, and User:Couillaud told me about (as he is apparently an expert on the Negro Leagues), is that Paige himself was every bit the obfuscator that Veeck was. I'm inclined to take his word in the book as being straight, though. It has the ring of truth, and although he still leaves room for some equivocation, he still keeps coming back to the 7-7-06 as being the true record, even disagreeing with his own mother about it. Would it be helpful to scan and upload the picture of that document? I think a fair use claim could easily be made. Baseball Bugs 05:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- The point being that Paige himself was one source of the debate. He had been pitching for quite a few years, and he gave different answers to different reporters, just like Dizzy Dean supposedly did, if you've heard that one. Baseball Bugs 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- I agree about Paige being a source of the debate. He was a master at marketing his own myth and seemed to recognize that controversy about his birthdate would contribute. My recollection is that the birth certificate first showed up after he'd been in the majors a couple of years and a newspaper got hold of it. My understanding is that it was a big story at the time. Uncertainty about birthdates affects a lot of old-time players. An example is Connie Marrero, where I handled it by listing the "official" date in the lead accompanied by a footnote saying that there are also other published birthdates. (Btw, my understanding is that MLB's "official" birth and death dates are established by a SABR research committee, which is said to take its responsibilities very seriously.) BRMo 06:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder what their take is on the allegation that Christy Mathewson was born in 1878 insted of the established date of 1880. Baseball Bugs 06:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- SABR is definitely serious about it, so that would be a reliable source, i just couldn't find anything on their website about it. So perhaps the best way to do this is to say (officially July 7, 1906-June 8,1982)[1] (and do the same in the infobox) and then make the reference a note as it is on the Marrero page. //Tecmobowl 06:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- For a comparison, consider Chief Bender, where the generally accepted date is given, along with a footnote explaining alternative dates. Baseball Bugs 06:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- But there is a birth certificate—I'm looking at a photo of it opposite page 145 of his autobiography, and it says "July 7, 1906." Of course, birth records aren't always accurate either, but it's better documentation than we have for lots of other old-time baseball players. BRMo 05:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Tecmobowl, I believe that you are making the mistake of giving equal weight to every claim on his birthdate. 1899 is NOT a possibility, or Leroy Page would have shown up on the 1900 census with his parents John and Lula; he does not. The Pages had a daughter, Julia, born in May 1900, making another child in July 1900 pretty unlikely as well. The most common and best-supported date is July 7, 1906, even in the three web articles you cited, and his family celebrated his 100th birthday last year. 1906 might not be the correct date (that IS possible, though unlikely at present), but it is the ACCEPTED date, by the Hall of Fame, by SABR, and by Paige's family, and it is what we should use, unless you have strong evidence to the contrary. -- Couillaud 04:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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- For the record, SABR does have biographical information on the website, but it is in the "Members Only" section; if you're not a dues-paying member, it's not available. And for the record, SABR lists Paige's birth date as July 7, 1906, Mobile, AL; they make no notes about any dispute in his birth date, and my experience with SABR is that they're pretty picky on such things.
- I have problems with the "Officially" designation; as I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, it sounds dangerously like those people who dispute whether or not Paul McCartney is still alive because of a stupid hoax nearly 40 years ago (and Tecmobowl, before there is a misunderstanding, I am not calling you stupid, only the McCartney hoax). It is entirely possible that there was never a dispute about Paige's age until he started pitching in the AL in 1948, and he and Bill Veeck found fun and profit in obscuring his age. Can we find a reference seriously disputing his birth date that appeared before 1948? -- Couillaud 16:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Tecmo Banned Indefinitely. FYI--Tecmo has been banned indefinitely for repeated violations of Wiki policy.--Epeefleche 01:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pay Rate
The article states Mr. Paige was given a raise in the Negro Leagues from $50 a week to $200 a month...how is that a raise???
- That sounds like somebody's idea of a joke... like the Dilbertism that "40 percent of all employee absences occur on Mondays and Fridays". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Without looking up sources, my guess is that Paige started at $50 per month, not per week. Based on what I know of Negro League salaries in 1923 (when the Negro Leagues were a bit more healthy financially), a top salary for a Negro League star would have been about $300-350 per month(Oscar Charleston, who was an established star, made $300 per month in 1923, and was only paid April through September), and an average player might get $100 to $150. It seems unlikely that the unproven Paige would command $50/week (which would be about $220/mo) to start. I'll see what other sources say. --Couillaud 18:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] infobox
Trying to create an info box some help would be appreciated
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Satchel_Paige&diff=156400538&oldid=156367484 64.131.205.111 02:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 1926?
The partial list of teams on the infobox starts at 1926. If his playing for that team 1926-1927 is cited, there shouldn't be any uncertainty as cited in the lead of the article... TheHYPO (talk) 00:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- I think the uncertainty is because Chattanooga played in a "minor" Negro league. Birmingham was in the Negro National League, a "major" Negro league. BRMo (talk) 04:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
