Talk:Raphael Kalinowski

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	Raphael Kalinowski is part of the WikiProject Saints, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Saints and other individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical calendars on Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to saints as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to saints. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.	Saints Portal
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Contents 1 Vilna College 2 Raphael or Rafał? 3 Saint Casimir and Saint Hyacinth 4 Hi Gang! 5 Proper names 6 Wilno vs. Vilnius 7 Ethnic Poles 8 rv war 9 Starting afresh? 10 Here We Go Again 11 I am giving the original names back 12 Saint Raphael's Memoirs 13 Trivia Indentation 14 Choices of references

[edit] Vilna College

In my references, I've seen the school that he attended (and where his father Andrew taught mathematics) listed variously as "the Institute of Nobles", the "Nobiliary Institute," and "the Nobility College", but I think those may be euphemisms for some other school, perhaps even Vilnius University. Can anyone else verify this? Elonka 02:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, Institute for Nobles was a secondary school. It's likely his academic education was this School of Agriculture at Hory-Horki, near Orsha. this Polish source calls it the Instytut Agronomiczny and states he attended it only for 2 years, and then moved to Mikołajewska Szkoła Inżynierii in Petersburg (Nicholayev Engineering Academy in our article). I cannot find any reference he attented the Vilnius University.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice job on the other school research. I'm enjoying seeing the actual school names.  :) Elonka 00:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raphael or Rafał?

English Google search: Raphael 711, Rafał 304. Raphael is more popular, but I think it is an italicized version of Polish Rafał, and we should use his given name. Comments?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Raphael. It's the version of the name used by the Vatican in their English-language press releases, and every English-language biography (of which I've read several) uses the spelling of Raphael. Though a redirect from the other spellings might be appropriate. Italian is "Raffaele", Spanish/Portuguese is "Rafael". Elonka 23:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The name is correct according to the rule. Becoming a Saint he ceased to be the private person named Rafał or Józef. However, in the article he should be referred to as Józef Kalinowski since his birth to 1877 when he took the name of Brother Rafał of Saint Joseph, and the new name should be used for the period until 1983 when he was beatified as Father Raphael (Józef) Kalinowski. In 1991 he was canonised as Saint Raphael Kalinowski, and since then the new name should be used.

This structure should be used in the article - Wikipedia:WikiProject_Saints#Structure.--SylwiaS | talk 04:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Oooh, I had no idea there was a WikiProject related to Saints. Thanks, this will be a very useful guideline for some of the pages that I'm working on. Elonka 06:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Casimir and Saint Hyacinth

Any advice if they should be moved or not would be appreciated (Saint Kazimierz Jagiełło and Saint Hyacinth Odrowąż perhaps?).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Gang!

Hi, how's everybody doing? The article says he was born in Poland. Is this true? Or was he born in Lithuania? Wasn't he technically born in the Russian Empire in Russia? The prokonsul Piotrus wants to move the English Raphael to the more polonized Rafał. What's up? It's the English Wikipedia version we are dealing with here. I dare say I bet I'll get more "google" hits on the name Raphael than Rafał. And SylwiaS, why haven't you or your friends changed Wilno to Vilnius?Dr. Dan 20:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The article doesn't say he was born in Poland. It said he was born in occupied Poland under Russian control (I corrected it to link to partitions of Poland). Please note that 'Poland' is often used to refer to the federation of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, feel free to improve that sentence so there is no misunderstanding. Besides, I didn't want to move it, I suggested discussing if the name is correct above. Sheez. I find it amusing that on your user page you call yourself as a pacifist, yet you seem to enjoy starting flame wars.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Where have I ever seen "a German, born in Polish-occupied Danzig"?! That's the kind of thing we're talking about! Can't we even try to keep it neutral? I changed the nationalism-infested "born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Wilno, in Poland under Russian partition (currently, Vilnius, Lithuania)" to the neutral "was an ethnic-Polish Discalced Carmelite friar born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Vilnius, Lithuania." This seems very reasonable. - Calgacus 21:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Can a pacifist also want historical objectivity? Hmmm? If I make Wilno, Vilnius in the English Wikipedia, is that O.K? Am I starting a flame war if I do so? When I did, why did the "objective" SylwiaS, revert it back to Wilno (said it links to Vilnius anyway), and why wasn't it questioned or reverted at that time. Anybody else wonder? And Prokonsul, don't avoid answering the Rafał vs. Raphael argument. In the Wladysław Jagiełło discussion (or melee), you object to giving Jogaila, his Lithuanian name, but argue to give Raphael Kalinowski his Polish name i.e., Rafał. So what's up? Can you all even begin to understand the "real problem" that we are dealing with. I'll bet most of these contributors grew up under the communist government of Poland. Go re-read some of the "histories" out of the Soviet Union, about Poland and you will understand why I want to give objectivity it's fair shake, visa vis your neighbors. If you want to put in pictures about the fall of Berlin in 1945 in Wikipedia about the contributions of the Polish Army, great. If you want to make the ORP Piorun the cause of the sinking of the German Battleship Bismarck, great. Just don't make your contributions make yourselves look ridiculous. And try to keep the inuendo to a minimum, it does'nt look good when you later whine that you're being attacked. Dr. Dan 21:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Unbelievable, indeed! Are you going to become my stalker? I can hardly see any post of yours without mentioning my name. Are you going to check now every article I have ever contributed to and ask questions of me? I'm afraid I have no time to sustain your couriosity every time you wish. Also, please, if you're going to drag me throughout all the talk pages, at least be fair about what I did. I guess you refer to this diff [1]. The text was saying: ...born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Wilno, in Poland under Russian occupation (currently, Vilnius, Lithuania). I only moved the interlink from Vilnius to Wilno, which was mentioned first. That's what we do in all Wiki articles - link the first mentioning, I didn't remove the name Vilnius or the statement that it's in Lithuania. Also, Calgacus' current version is incorrect. Wilno was in Poland since 1791, so he was a Pole born in Poland (although under partition), not an ethnic Pole born in a foreign country. BTW Your comment about what Poles can do or not is of course extremely rude, and unless you calm your nerves I'll stop responding to any of your posts.--SylwiaS | talk 04:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Is Vilnius not in Lithuania now? As Lithuania was "in Poland", by which you mean controlled by the Polish state, on your logic you should be happy that Vilnius is listed as being in Lithuania. - Calgacus 06:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you all even begin to understand the "real problem" that we are dealing with. A editor with some issues against Poland with usual slanders in line of go re-read some of the "histories" out of the Soviet Union, about Poland that accuses a;; Polish users of bias and ignorance ? Calm down and stop attacking Polish users on wiki and focus on facts and objectivity. If I make Wilno, Vilnius in the English Wikipedia, is that O.K? Its competely ok to me. --Molobo 23:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sylwia, I'm definitely not going to become your stalker. So don't worry. As to your remark that " Wilno was in Poland since 1791", again merely points to a nationalistic bias on your part. Vilnius has been in Lithuania since it was founded. Just as Poznan remained Polish even after it was re-incorporated into "Gross Deutschland" in 1939. Fortunately the current governments of Poland and Lithuania, have made much progress in restoring relations between the two countries. They have also tried to mute some of the rabid nationalists on both sides, who want to rehash the occupation of Vilnius by Poland in the 1920's. As a gesture of good faith, I hope you'll join me in changing Wilno to Vilnius whenever you see it in the English Wikipedia from now on. We can change Rzym to Rome and Breslau to Wroclaw, if we see it, too. Dr. Dan 14:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Poland didn't occupy Wilno after 1791, just as Germany didn't occupy Wrocław prior to 1945. So I'm afraid that you cannot change Breslau to Wrocław every time you see it. It would violate Gdansk/Vote results which among others say that every German born in Polish soil should have written the German name of their mother town and the Polish name in brackets. I.e. X born in Breslau (now Wrocław, Poland). But well, it seems that Poles can't be so lucky as Germans even when they were born in what was then their own country, while Germans can have it even when the land got under Germany rule as a result of German aggression like Gdańsk, Poznań etc. Also, please, I don't think that Vilnius is a Polish city today or that it should be, but I also don't think that May Constitution was a form of occupation.--SylwiaS | talk 15:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proper names

I saw that someone had gone through the article and changed everybody's first names to the Polish equivalent. I went and re-checked my books to see how the first names are listed in the English-language biographies, and have put the names back to English versions. This means "George" not "Jerzy", "Joseph" not "Jozef", "Charles" not "Karol", etc.

If someone can point me to an English-language book that uses the Polish spellings, please let me know. To my knowledge I own every single one of them[2], but if there's one I missed, I'm very interested in knowing about it. In the meantime, we stick with the form of the names that is used in the published biographies. Polish spelling = Polish Wikipedia. English spelling = English Wikipedia. Capiche? Elonka 19:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wilno vs. Vilnius

Please, read this Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Geographic names--SylwiaS | talk 18:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Have already done so. But why? - Calgacus 18:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

If you have, then why you keep reverting it?--SylwiaS | talk 20:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe if you read it you'd find out. - Calgacus 20:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Poles

Ethnic Poles (that is emigrants from Poland) and Poles are separate terms. Kalinowski was a Pole, like all the other Poles living in occupied Polish teritory in 19th century. Anyone who contradicts it, says that there were no Poles at all. That's not true.--SylwiaS | talk 20:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Nope. All poles, excepts non-Poles native to the territory of Poland, are ethnic Poles. - Calgacus 20:39, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you read the definition I linked to? And no, I am of Polish nationality, but I'm not 100% ethnic Pole, and I guess no one in Poland is.--SylwiaS | talk 20:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I did. - Calgacus 20:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Great! So the definition is disregarded by you: The word Pole can be defined as follows: Poles are people considered to be Poles by being in any way connected to the Polish (former or current land), language, ethnicity, or culture.? Are you now going to change all Poles born in 19th century to ethnic-Poles? Maybe you want to change the 20th century Poles to ethnic-Poles too? After all we're nothing more but descendants of ethnic-Poles with Russian, German or Austrian citizenship?--SylwiaS | talk 20:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where you get some of your thinking from, honestly. And what does it matter to you anyway, Vilnius wasn't in Poland then, it was in Russia. - Calgacus 21:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course, in some periods whole Poland wasn't in Poland only somewhere else. But Poles didn't emigrate, they remained in place. Similarly if someone was born in Warsaw in 1940 would you call him an ethnic Pole?--SylwiaS | talk 21:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yep, but because he is Polish, not because he didn't live in Poland. Anyways, you don't seem to be building up a very decent case. - Calgacus 21:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you know, there is a poet I like very much. I always thought he was Scottish, but now it seems I must have been wrong. Robert Burns must have been nothing more but an ethnic Scot living abroad. The same must be wrote in biographies of Irvine Welsh, Robert Louis Stevenson, James Hogg, Sir Walter Scott etc. Good. Will you go now and change their biographies?--SylwiaS | talk 21:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

If these guys had been born in Ulster or Carlisle (two places ruled or partly ruled by the Scots back in the day), you might have a point; they were not Gaelic speakers in any case, so couldn't really be called "ethnic Scots". - Calgacus 21:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you want an "ethnic Pole" debate that I'll agree with you on, let's try at Eduard Strasburger. He's routinely listed as a "famous German botanist", even though he was born in Warsaw, as were many of his relatives. I should know, he's in my family tree. It's true that he became famous in Bonn, but his roots were in Poland, and every elderly relative I've talked to about him, confirms that he was Polish, not German. Elonka 21:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

He quite confirmed it himself. He named his son Juliusz, not Julian. He should be Polish-German as Zbigniew Brzezinski is Polish-American. BTW Maybe then you're related to Karol Strasburger, Polish actor [3]?--SylwiaS | talk 22:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe! I haven't been able to keep up with all of the modern day Strasburger family, but if you can find a family tree for him that shows grandparents/great-grandparents, I'll take a look to see if there are any names that I recognize. I do know that I'm related to Henryk Leon Strasburger, who was a member of the Polish government-in-exile during WWII. Hey, as an aside, did you see my translation request at Talk:Rodryg Dunin? I'd love if you could take a stab at that, and then I'll fold stuff into the article. Elonka 01:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Haha. Reminds me of Robert I of Scotland, routinely called "Norman" but in fact, ignoring his name, he was just as Gaelic as anyone else from Carrick in the era. Well, I'm going to be interested to see how our friends here change that article, now that they're aware of it. :) - Calgacus 21:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

So, are you going to write that those guys were/are not Scottish?--SylwiaS | talk 22:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to write about them at all. - Calgacus 22:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I see.--SylwiaS | talk 22:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rv war

Calgacus, please, bring any sources that will say that he wasn't a Pole but an ethnic Pole. For now it's nothing more than your WP:POV.--SylwiaS | talk 21:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you must not understand the English language properly. Pole and ethnic-Pole are not exclusive concepts. Anyways, Vilnius was in Russia at the time, and it don't particularly matter that it was previously part of the Lithuanian part of the Polish-Lithuania commonwealth. Call him a Pole if you like, but stop calling Vilnius Wilno (and don't BTW try to dress up two issues as one). It is nationalistic and not in accordance with modern English, the language of this encyclopedia. - Calgacus 21:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The rules of this encyclopedia allow to call Vilnius Wilno in a historical context. And it's the case with Kalinowski. If the article was about a member of Polish minority in Lithuania today, I wouldn't have a problem with calling him an ethnic Pole living in Vilnius. Anyway, describing him as a Pole born in Wilno is in accordance with all the rules of Wiki, so why you keep reverting it?--SylwiaS | talk 21:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Nu uh; but you're funny. I'm sure your quite backward-looking and rampant nationalism (evidenced here and other articles) you could manipulate one to make it justify calling Vilnius Wilno, but what's the point? It's name is Vilnius, and it was in Russia then (which you keep ignoring), so you can call it Vilnius or Вильно, but not Wilno. Otherwise, we can start calling New York Nuova York in articles about Italian-Americans, or articles about Gaels from Nova Scotia, we can call Halifax Halafacs and New Glasgow Baile Beag. - Calgacus 22:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

No, Vilnius is a modern name. The town wasn't called like that back then [4]. Wilno is the name we use in historical context for Poles born in the town, and Wikipedia says it's proper, as I showed you above. So what's your point except throwing more insults at me?--SylwiaS | talk 22:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

LOL ... "modern", you mean, its the one currently used? Do you wish to call it Vilna then? "Wikipedia" ... does no such thing ... the link you posted above ain't "wikipedia", it's a proposal for naming (so please, only post such things in future when they are relevant, and stop trying to mislead people to suit your own nationalistic agenda). If you get insulted by me accusing you of "rampant nationalism", then stop doing things that are so backward-looking and nationalistic. Otherwise, grow-up and live with it; and wait until I directly insult you before you start blubbering paranoid, over-sensitive indignation. Anyways, in the interests of neutrality, I redid the opening section; now everyone can know its Polish and Russian names, and the little history lecture is retain in the opening section. - Calgacus 22:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Calling people "nationalists" is highly offensive and absolutely inappropriate on Wikipedia. Whenever you lack valid arguments, you start your annoying name calling that doesn't prove anything, except that you need to grow up first, before working here with others. Also, your version of "neutrality" is biased and completely unacceptable. Space Cadet 23:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I never called anyone a nationalist. I described the editing behaviour as nationalistic, which it is (and you just called my editing biased, so quit whinging). If you don't like me desribing it like that, then that's just tough. I thought you wanted to inform people what it was called back then? I put those in brackets, the Russians called it by their name, the Poles by their name? Why have you removed that so it only shows the Polish name, with the modern English name in brackets, and the Russian name omitted? You want to have everything your own way. In the Nicolaus Copernicus article there was a dispute about his Polishness, and about the inclusion of a Polish name. I came in, kept the Polish name, said that I didn't have a problem calling him Polish, and put the German name after the Polish name in a genuine attempt to appease everyone and bring compromise. Yet that still wasn't enough, you had to remove the German name, even though many editors believe that he was German and had a German background. And I'm biased? LOL. As for the other nonsense, go post it on the Polish notice board where it might be taken seriously, not at me ;). - Calgacus 23:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Why won't you bring any sources to any discussion at last? Or why you won't change all Danzings to Gdańsks, or all Scottish people to Brits? Is neutrality your real interest, or you just like disparaging articles related to Poland, with very little knowledge about the topic in general? If you disagree with me, bring sources to back your POV. And please, it's the last time I ask you to stop insulting me. BTW You're bordering on breaking the WP:3RR--SylwiaS | talk 23:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Sources? What on earth are you talking about. Do you even know what a source is? Yes, neutrality is my real interest. I'm genuinely scared that English wikipedia is going to be marred with the agenda of new eastern European nationalism, and the activities of you, Space Cadet, Molobo, and in general the community of Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board, are making a joke of the neutrality of this encyclopedia. Why else would I be taking an interest in this page?! - Calgacus 23:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starting afresh?

Ok, since you cannot revert it at the moment, how about getting a consensus here before we put it into the article, and ending the whole discussion?

Your last proposition was:

Saint Raphael Kalinowski (September 1, 1835 – November 15, 1907) was a Polish Discalced Carmelite friar born in the city of Vilnius (Po: Wilno; Ru: Вильнюс or Вильно), now in Lithuania, but then part of the Russian Empire.

The old lead was:

Saint Raphael Kalinowski (Polish: Rafał Kalinowski) (September 1, 1835 – November 15, 1907) was a Polish Discalced Carmelite friar born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Wilno, in Poland under Russian partition (currently, Vilnius, Lithuania).

How about merging it into:

Saint Raphael Kalinowski (Polish: Rafał Kalinowski) (September 1, 1835 – November 15, 1907) was a Polish Discalced Carmelite friar born as Józef Kalinowski in the city of Vilnius (Pl: Wilno; Ru: Вильнюс or Вильно), in Poland under Russian partition (currently Vilnius, Lithuania). --SylwiaS | talk 23:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm impressed SylwiaS. BTW, I never attempted to get rid of (Polish: Rafał Kalinowski), which I think is quite appropriate. I think the merge is quite fair, but the repetition of Vilnius and Poland is clumsy, so:

Saint Raphael Kalinowski (Polish: Rafał Kalinowski) (September 1, 1835 – November 15, 1907) was a Polish Discalced Carmelite friar born as Józef Kalinowski inside the Russian partitions of Poland, in the city of Vilnius (Pl: Wilno; Ru: Вильнюс or Вильно), a city now in the Republic of Lithuania.

- Calgacus 00:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I need your advice though. Would "Russian partitions of Poland" or "Russian partition of Poland" (singular form) be more appropriate (with the same ilink of course)?--SylwiaS | talk 00:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Both sound slightly awkward, because they sound like historical events, rather than territories. Partitions is much the less clumsy. - Calgacus 00:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Done, and thanks!--SylwiaS | talk 00:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

When we talk about the area controlled by one of the partitioning powers, we use the singular, e.g. the Austrian partition. There is no confusion in Polish, where there is a word for the events of 1772, 93, and 95 ("rozbiory"), and the three areas ("zabory"). I've made the change. Appleseed (Talk) 22:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd only add that claiming that he was born in Vilnius would be like claiming that Peter I of Russia moved his capital to Leningrad. Halibutt 16:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Here We Go Again

"Vilnius is a modern name. The town was'nt called like that back then (sic)". Is that an absurd statement or what? Evidently not according to its author, SylwiaS. Vilnius is not a modern name. It is the Lithuanian name of a Lithuanian city. It has other names in other languages. Is that easy to understand or is another rant forthcoming? Dr. Dan 15:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I am giving the original names back

This is absurd. As I said before should we name Karol Wojtyła as Charles ? --Molobo 23:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

See the "Proper Names" section, above. --Elonka 07:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Raphael's Memoirs

Because I am a blood relative of Saint Raphael, I have come into possession of the first known English translation of his memoirs. This is a fascinating document of great historical significance, as it details his involvement with the growing Polish insurrection against the Russian occupation (actions which later resulted in his arrest, death sentence, and banishment to Siberia). The translation has evidently been compiled by a 95-year-old Carmelite nun, whose permission I am attempting to gain, so that I may make her translation public. But in the meantime does anyone have an opinion on whether or not such a translation can be listed as a reference on the Wikipedia page? I am of two minds on it -- on the one hand, the translation is definitely not yet published. On the other hand, it's a complete manuscript, which is clearly a translation of a Polish-language document which is published. What do other Wikipedia editors think? --Elonka 19:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• If the original is published, then the reference could be done to the original document. I see no problems with using unpublished translation to help people read the document. So far nobody forbade editors to make their own translation of non-English documents, so what is wrong with the nun's translation. BTW you could put the translation to the Wikisource [5]. I believe we could use the text from wikisource as a references. abakharev 21:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia Indentation

Is it just me or is the increasing identation in the Trivia section goofy? It looks sloppy, unprofessional, even if it's trying to convey the deepening levels of family. MKV

[edit] Choices of references

The subject of the article is a saint, and thus inherently notable, but shouldn't there be references other than those published by an admitted blood relative to back up more of this article? Surely, there are better sources. --208.181.90.67 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)