Talk:Ptolemaida

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Contents 1 The 1911 Edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica about Yuruks, Kailars and Konariotes 2 Tha article sould be this form. Historical maps are important 3 old and new pictures of the city 4 Etymology 4.1 Ottoman Times should be expanded 5 Villages were named (in Ottoman Times ): are should be added in the article 6 Old Maps are here that should be added in the article(also english maps should be added) 7 Etymolgy of Turkish name 8 Ptolemaide name needs historical proof. 9 Edits by 3210 10 Ottoman history 10.1 Ottoman period text from article 10.1.1 cleanup 10.2 Balkan Wars text from article 11 Is the Ottoman History section too long? Should it be shortened? 12 Attempt to copy-edit Ottoman section 13 Death and Exile 14 Aubrey Herbert's reports 15 German article

[edit] The 1911 Edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica about Yuruks, Kailars and Konariotes

see link

The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konia, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia . At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration

The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:

• the most easterly extends from the Mesta to Drama, Pravishta and Orfano, reaching the sea-coast on either side of Kavala, which is partly Turkish, partly Greek.
• The second, or central group begins on the sea-coast, a little west of the mouth of the Strymon, where a Greek population intervenes, and extends to the north-west along the Kara-Dagh and Belasitza ranges in the direction of Strumnitza, Veles, Shtip and Radovisht.
• The third, or southern, group is centred around Kailar, an entirely Turkish town, and extends from Lake Ostrovo to Selfije (Servia). The second and third groups are mainly composed of Konariot shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there are numerous isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country. The Turkish rural population is quiet, sober and orderly, presenting some of the best characteristics of the race. Apostolos Margaritis 10:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)--3210 22:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Byzantines retained the southern regions and Salonica, which temporarily fell into the hands of the Saracens in 904. With the exception of the 1 Also Alexander, Perdiccas, Philip, &c. maritime districts, the whole of Macedonia formed a portion of the empire of the Bulgarian tsar Simeon (893-927); the Bulgarian power declined after his death, but was revived in western Macedonia under the Shishman dynasty at Ochrida; Tsar Samuel (976-1014), the third ruler of that family, included in his dominions Uskiib, Veles, Vodena and Melnik. After his defeat by the emperor Basil II. in 1014 Greek domination was established for a century and a half. The Byzantine emperors endeavoured to confirm their positions by Asiatic colonization; Turkish immigrants, afterwards known as Vardariotes, the first of their race who appeared in Macedonia, were settled in the neighbourhood of Salonica in the 9th century; colonies of Uzes, Petchenegs and Kumans were introduced at various periods from the 11th to the 13th century. While Greeks and Bulgarians disputed the mastery of Macedonia the Vlachs, in the 10th century, established an independent state in the Pindus region, which, afterwards known as Great Walachia, continued to exist till the beginning of the 14th century. In 1185 southern Macedonia was exposed to a raid of the Normans under William of Sicily, who captured Salonica and massacred its inhabitants. After the taking of Constantinople in 1204 by the Franks of the fourth crusade, the Latin empire of Romania was formed and the feudal kingdom of Thessalonica was bestowed on Boniface, marquis of Montferrat; this was overthrown in 1222 by Theodore, despot of Epirus, a descendant of the imperial house of the Comneni, who styled himself emperor of Thessalonica and for some years ruled over all Macedonia. He was defeated and captured by the Bulgarians in 1230 and the remnant of his possessions, to which his son John succeeded, was absorbed in the empire of Nicaea in 1234. Bulgarian rule was now once more established in Macedonia under the powerful monarch Ivan Asen II. (1218-1241) whose dynasty, of Vlach origin, had been founded at Trnovo in 1186 after a revolt of the Vlachs and Bulgars against the Greeks. A period of decadence followed the extinction of the Asen dynasty in 1257; the Bulgarian power was overthrown by the Servians at Velbuzhd (1330), and Macedonia was included in the realm of the great Servian tsar Dushan (1331-1355) who fixed his capital at Uskiib. Dushan's empire fell to pieces after his death, and the anarchy which followed prepared the way for the advance of the Turks, to whom not only contending factions at Constantinople but Servian and Bulgarian princes alike made overtures.

Macedonia and Thrace were soon desolated by Turkish raids; when it was too late the Slavonic states combined against the invaders, but their forces, under the Servian tsar Lazar, were routed at Kossovo in 1389 by the sultan Murad I. Salonica and Larissa were captured in 1395 by Murad's son Bayezid, whose victory over Sigismund of Hungary at Nicopolis in 1396 sealed the fate of the peninsula. The towns in the Struma valley were yielded to the Turks by John VII. Palaeologus in 1424; Salonica was taken for the last time in 1428 by Murad II [1]-- 3210  ^(T) 05:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tha article sould be this form. Historical maps are important

Pasting of preferred version of article removed.

It was suggested in this edit by User:3210 that this edit should not have been reverted. Jkelly 18:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] old and new pictures of the city

. Do you have a old or new historicsl plsces pictures of the city.

I am the writer of this article as well as a citizen of this city. The name originated from one of the Alexanter's the Great General. It is not only the name that makes the necessity to okeep it Ptolemaida but also the historical meaning that makes the residents of this city to have their own identity. Being refuggees from their homes in Pontus and Asia Minor they created a pure Greek city in West Macedonia. Thus there is no need to misinform the others with non adequate arguments. --Nakos2208 14:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

ı am so sorry. Nakos2208 said : "The name originated from one of the Alexanter's the Great General." Do you have any historical proof for the name of Ptolemaida? If you have ,ı will accept it.

I suppose that this argument is only greek state propoganda.

İf you look at "The 1911 Edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica" says that " series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication". And Ottoman archives also fully sport this argument.

Brittanica says:

"The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia. The third, or southern, group is centred around Kailar, an entirely Turkish town, and extends from Lake Ostrovo to Selfije (Servia). The second and third groups are mainly composed of Konariot shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there are numerous isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country. The Turkish rural population is quiet, sober and orderly, presenting some of the best characteristics of the race. Apostolos Margaritis ınfact we were komshis for 600 years. We loved you as a komshi. Our realagion gives us responsibility and rights to komshi. with noble regards --3210 03:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Ptolemaida (Greek,

• Modern: Πτολεμαΐδα,
• Ancient/Katharevousa: Πτολεμαΐς,
• South Slavic languages: Кајлари or Кајљар,
• Ottoman languages: İt is written k-i-l-r Kayılar or Kayalar or Kaylar)
• English Kailar in Latain alpfabet, older form: Ptolemais

See : Kayı Kai

• Arabic Ottoman transcript:

[edit] Ottoman Times should be expanded

See main article: Ottoman Greece

According to Ottoman archivies the city was estableshed by turks.

First settlmants of Kailar are below

The Sultan's ferman for Kailar:

Ptolemaida was called Kailari (from the Turkish word which means relative like kainpeder;father in law -lar makes plural).

• Main city was two parts : 1.Ashai kailar(Türkish:Aşağı Kayılar) and Ukari Kailar(Yukarı Kayılar)--3210 08:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
• Karafere war
• Gianittsa war
• Kumanova war
• population
• Population Exchange
• Loussanne

[edit] Villages were named (in Ottoman Times ): are should be added in the article

• Erdemuş(Erdoğmuş)
• Kuzlu küy
• Çalcılar
• Hasan Köyü
• Karapınar Köyü see: Karapınar war
• Çalcılar
• Köseler
• Ağustos
• Karaferye see:Karafere war
• Sele
• Topçular
• Baraklı
• Çerkesköy
• Çeşme
• Aydos
• Gülünç
• Kölemez
• Uçana
• Nalbantköy
• İğneli
• Kurtlar
• Debre
• Sulpa
• Durutlar
• Oyvodina
• Muralar
• Kırımşa
• Arabina
• Komana
• Kaynak
• Eleviç
• Soroviç
• Noyrat Gölü
• Sotur
• Orhan
• Kruşar
• Sarıkulak
• Bulgar
• Milas
• Yeniköy
• Tarman
• Dustan(Farsi, means freands)
• Kalburcular
• Demirciler
• yayla
• Dedeler
• kale obası
• bağçeli obası
• Ahmetli
• Köçek Ahmetli
• Çamurlu
• Kuranekeş
• Akpınar
• Kadirli
• Tatarcılar
• Kırçova
• Komana
• Türbe
• Celalli
• Haydarlı
• Cuma Tekkesi
• Hacılar
• Gaziler
• Moğol
• Karaağaç
• Çakırlar
• Sarı musalar
• Rahmanlı
• İsar
• İbişli
• Menteşeli
• Hacı Morti
• Aksaklı
• Baraklı
• Ayna Obası
• Topçular
• Veranlık
• Üsküpler
• Köseler
• Yüz Obası
• Yunuslu
• Menteşeli
• Kırımşa
• Habillu
• Muhinler
• Koçana
• Katransa
• Terepişte
• Frankoça
• arkadohor
• urupan
• Çalışan
• Öküz Obası
• Ahmet Obası
• Adil obası
• Filan Obası
• Karlı Dağ
• Karaferye
• Karaahmet
• İsmailler
• Cevadlı
• Sofular
• Köseler
• Işıklar

--3210 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old Maps are here that should be added in the article(also english maps should be added)

The name of places in Latin alfabet.

[edit] Etymolgy of Turkish name

There are no sources for this. What is the word for "relative" in Turkish? I could not find anything resembling "kai" in the dictionary [2]. The derivation of the name from related villages is also not sourced.  Andreas  ^(T) 15:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Latin alfabet has had never been used in Ottoman Times. So that Kai-lar used by English . Turks used Kayı-lar ,'Kaya-lar or Kay-lar (our fathers pronansiation like this or they say "Kayılar lıyız" you can write "kailarleıyız" something like that in english. Turkish: Kayı-lar, Kay-lar or English writing Kai-lar (from the Turkish word for relative, cf. kai-npeder (or kayı-npeder or you say kai-npeder , "father in law". -'lar is the plural suffix) in the Ottoman alphabet: قایلر : can be read kai-lar in english, kay-lar kay-ılar or kayalar in turkish latin alfabeth. Also kainpeder in Englih can be read kai-npeder kai-lar lar:pulural suffix

Slavic: Кајлари – Kailari or Кајљар – Kailyar —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3210 (talk • contribs) 06:04, 9 November 2006.

[edit] Ptolemaide name needs historical proof.

Ptolemaide name needs historical proof.

• Because slavic and turkic languages deny that.
• Also English and Ottoman historical maps deny this argument.
• It should be known that Ottoman State prenciply never cahanged any city names. For example: the official name for İstanbul were Kostantiniye or (Costantinopolis) used until the last Ottoman money.
• look at Samson or Samsun city name.
• Infact everybody has used istanbul at this time.
• But Ottoman State did never used unofficial name.Dispite all people used İstanbul.
• If Ptolemaida name were used Ottoman time it definitly sould be used in Ottoman maps and ottoman archives.
• Infact pontus people used Ptolemaide-Kailari for many years after the population exchange.) --25px 3210  ^(T) 20:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I reverted: this kind of comment has to be discussed here and should not be in the article. Facts are that "Ptolemaida" is the official name today, and that the city was named after Ptolemy I Soter. The name "Ptolemaida" is apparently a modern name made official in 1928 The city is relatively young and was previously inhabited mostly by ethnic Turcs[3]. .  Andreas  ^(T) 16:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by 3210

user:3210 chose to revert my edits without any discussion or edit summaries. I would be happy to know what the motives of these changes were. I have a few comments to make:

The modern name "Ptolemaida" was introduced by the Toponymy Commission in 1927 according to the suggestion of Pantelis Melanofrydis. This is an entirely modern name, not an Ancient Greek name.

The general history of Greek Macedonia is in a special article called Macedonia (Greece). There is no point to repeat this in each and every article in the region.  Andreas  ^(T) 18:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ottoman history

The section on the history of Kailar during the Ottoman times has to be rewritten. Apart from the the obvious deficiencies in style, spelling etc., the specifid history of the city is mixed with the general history of the region. Information taken from sources such as the Britannica related to the general history of Macedonia is incorporated even if this is not relevant to kailar. For example,

"The Turkish rural population was found in three principal groups:" etc.

of these groups, only the third one refers to Kailar.

" the Greeks occupied an exceptional position in Macedonia": true, but does this also hold for Kailar, then a predominantly Turkish town?

The section is far too long and should be shortened, retaining only the essentials. Some of the information should be moved to the history of Macedonia, with appropriate sources mentioned.  Andreas  ^(T) 18:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I moved the text here to inspect it

[edit] Ottoman period text from article

The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor to Kailar took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country.¹ see link Kai tribe was the most noble, sober ,productive and self dsiplinied tribe in the Turkish tribes. So that they took place from Asia Minor by emperors.They showed best characters of their race according to ansiklopedia Brittanica 1911 edition. Such as komshi relationship, komshi gate, komshi rights ,to make halalleshma with komshi. To give komshi what they eat. To protect non muslim population against enemies ,to war instaid of them for jizye. So that Turkish population was exhusted for securty services. This time was the longest peace time for Balkans's history and Kailar's history. So that this time was called Pax Ottomana for six hundred years.

During the Ottoman times, Ptolemaida was called Kailar. It had two parts: Ashai Kayılar and Ukarı Kayılar. Asai Kayılar was Bektashi and Ukari Kailar was Rufai,hanefi(naturalist) The first purely Turkish towns, Yenije-Vardar and Kailar in Rumelia, was in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population were still Turkish in 1925. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konia, in Asia Minor, had settled in Kailar; their descendants were known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the Beys or Moslem landowners in Kailar. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration

The Turkish rural population was found in three principal groups:

• the most easterly extends from the Mesta to Drama, Pravishta and Orfano, reaching the sea-coast on either side of Kavala, which were partly Turkish, partly Greek.
• The second, or central group begins on the sea-coast, a little west of the mouth of the Strymon, where a Greek population intervenes, and extends to the north-west along the Kara-Dagh and Belasitza ranges in the direction of Strumnitza, Veles, Shtip and Radovisht.
• The third, or southern, group was centred around Kailar, an entirely Turkish town, and extends from Lake Ostrovo to Selfije (Servia). The second and third groups were mainly composed of Konariot shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there were numerous nobel isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country. The Turkish rural population were quiet, sober and orderly, presented some of the best characteristics of the race.²see link

The Greek and Vlach populations were not always easily distinguished, as a considerable proportion of the Vlachs have been hellenized. Both show a remarkable aptitude for commerce; the Greeks maintained their language and religion, and the Vlachs their religion, with greater tenacity than any of the other races. From the date of the Ottoman conquest until comparatively recent times, the Greeks occupied an exceptional position in Macedonia, as elsewhere in the Turkish Empire, owing to the privileges conferred on the patriarchate of Constantinople, and the influence subsequently acquired by the great Phanariot families. All the Christian population belonged to the Greek millet and called itself Greek; the bishops and higher clergy were exclusively Greek; Greek was the language of the upper classes, of commerce, literature and religion, and Greek alone was taught in the schools. The supremacy of the patriarchate was consummated by the suppression of the autocephalous Slavonic churches of Ipek in 1766 and Ochrida in 1767. In the latter half of the 18th century Greek ascendancy in Macedonia was at its zenith; its decline began with the War of Independence, the establishment of the Hellenic kingdom, and the extinction of the Phanariot power in Constantinople. The patriarchate, nevertheless, maintained its exclusive jurisdiction over all the Orthodox population till 1870, when the Bulgarian exarchate was established, and the Greek clergy continued to labour with undiminished zeal for the spread of Hellenism. Notwithstanding their venality and intolerance, their merits as the only diffusers of culture and enlightenment in the past should not be overlooked. The process of hellenization made greater progress in the towns than in the rural districts of the interior, where the non-Hellenic populations preserved their languages, which alone saved the several nationalities from extinction.
The typical Greek, with his superior education, his love of politics and commerce, and his distaste for laborious occupations, has always been a dweller in cities.²see link

[edit] cleanup

A large part of this section was taken over literally from the Macedonia article of the Encyclopedia Britannica 11th ed. While this does not pose copyright problems, part of this information is taken out of context or does not relate directly to Kailar:

"After the capture of Salonica by the Turks in 1430, a large Turkish population settled in the city". This passage does not refer to Kailar but to Yenije-Vardar (I do not know what the present name of this town is).  Andreas  ^(T) 21:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Yenije-Vardar = Gianitsa  Andreas  ^(T) 02:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Balkan Wars text from article

Kailar population was moved to mounteins. Their magnificent houses were burned and distroyed by Greek soldiers during the war.

The area of Ptolemaida became famous for its contribution to the Macedonian Struggle, as well as the historic battles in the areas of Komanos^{[citation needed]} and Perdika^{[citation needed]} during the Balkan Wars of 1912-13. Ptolemaida was occupied by Greek forces on October 15, 1912.

Kailar became a community in 1918.

According to Population Exchange between Turkey and Greece dramatic population exchange made. Pontic refugees settled from Turkey such as Sürmene, Samsun, as well as a smaller number of refugees from Thrace arrived in the 1924s . So that 600 years long peace and multi culturel population ended. On September 8, 1942, Ptolemaida became a municipality with a population of 8000, whose main occupation was agriculture and livestock farming.

Virbarim 13:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Ottoman History section too long? Should it be shortened?

No never. 700 years of history couldn't be shortened. İt should be explained against helenistic information war propogandas. Every body knows that noble families of turks that showed best carecters of the rice such us zengid and Ayyubiddynesties estabilshed in the city for to secure the life of reaya reaosons in Pax OttomanaThe Kailar population died for the securty of greeks, ulahs aromanians,pomaks,macedonians and bulgarians. So that why shoud it be shortened? no never be shortened..--3210 02:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt to copy-edit Ottoman section

I tried to edit this section, but there were some passages that do not make sense. I would be grateful for answers to the following questions:

The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor to Kailar took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country.¹ see link

Conquest by whom? the Ottomans? Also, give an approximate date.

Kai tribe was the most noble, sober ,productive and self dsiplinied tribe in the Turkish tribes.

Who were the Kais? Were they the first sellters? Then, the explanation of the name "Kailar" given in the name section is probably wrong, the city was named after the Kai tribe. According to the Kai tribe article, Kailar means "the ones who have might and power".

Such as komshi relationship, komshi gate, komshi rights ,to make halalleshma with komshi. To give komshi what they eat. To protect non muslim population against enemies ,to war instaid of them for jizye.

Please explain what komshi is (write an article about komshi). What does "komshi gate", "halalleshma"? Not everybody understands turkish

So that Turkish population was exhusted for securty services.

This sentence does not make sense. "exhusted" is not an english word. "exhausted" does not make sense, either.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the history section is barely comprehensible, full of uncited assertions, strange formatting, spelling errors and other problems. I've added a cleanup tag to the article. Jkelly 19:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, the history section is garbled, and a lot of it comes from the 1911 Britannica's article on Macedonia (not specifically Kailar/Ptolemaida). I tried removing this, but it was reverted. --Macrakis 06:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death and Exile

• Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 (Hardcover)

by Justin McCarthy (Author) ISBN 0878500944 This could be included if Kailar is specifically mentioned, but I do not own the book.  Andreas  ^(T) 15:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes,komshi. Kailar specifically mentioned in the book of death and exile.--3210 14:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aubrey Herbert's reports

Please give the title and other bibliographical data of the specific publication where Kailar is mentioned.  Andreas  ^(T) 15:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German article

The German article is much better and more balanced and could help improve this one.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)