User talk:PericlesofAthens/Archive 2

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Contents 1 Technology of the Song Dynasty 2 Gunpowder warfare 3 Great job 4 Architecture 5 Thanks 6 Your Insights 7 Rfc 8 Agriculture in China 9 Improvements 10 Your input is requested 11 July 15 DYK 12 Song Dynasty and the associated articles (Architecture, Culture, Economy, History, Technology and Society) 13 Drawing 14 DYK 15 Fomenko 16 please see 17 GA nom 18 DYK 19 welcome 20 FA for tang dynasty 21 Night of the Long Knives FAC 22 Tang Dynasty 23 De Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum 24 DYK 25 An Lushan 26 Song Dynasty GA nominations 27 Citations 28 Fomenko again 29 Navbox 30 Fair use rationale for Image:Liaodi Pagoda.jpg 31 Your GA nomination of Architecture of the Song Dynasty 32 Your GA nomination of Society of the Song Dynasty 33 Your GA nomination of Economy of the Song Dynasty 34 Your GA nomination of Economy of the Song Dynasty 35 History of ferrous metallurgy 36 Great article 37 Image:Freer 009.jpg 38 Freer Gallery of Art images 39 User talk:Sfan00 IMG#Freer Gallery of Art images 40 POTD notification 41 DYK - Yan Zhitui 42 Chang'an 43 Society of the Song Dynasty 44 Quotes 45 Tong Guan 46 Arthur Wright 47 Augustus 48 Wujing Zongyao 49 Personal critique 50 Architecture of the Song Dynasty

[edit] Technology of the Song Dynasty

Marked Technology of the Song Dynasty as GA now, great work! --Drieakko 12:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gunpowder warfare

I've been trying to find a home for that quote you like but I've been having trouble.

In the meantime, perhaps you can help me with the following.

Because of the way they're worded, I'm having trouble determining their exact significance.

Grenades were employed in the Battle of Tangdao and the Battle of Caishi on the Yangtze River in 1161 AD, in which combatants employed soft-case bombs packed with lime and sulfur. (Partington 1999:240) (Needham:V:7:166) (Needham:V:7:476 or Needham:IV:3:476)

In 1221, cast iron bombs thrown by hand, sling, and catapult are mentioned, yet earlier in 1161 trebuchets on Song Dynasty naval warships were used to launch gunpowder bombs at the opposing Jin Dynasty navy. (Needham:IV:3:476)

This ancestor to the gun was dually complimented by the ancestor to the cannon, what the Chinese referred since the 13th century as the 'multiple bullets magazine erupter' ('bai zu lian zhu pao'), a tube of bronze or cast-iron that was filled with about 100 lead balls. (Needham:V:7:263–275)

On archeology, the oldest cannon in China dates from 1298, as discovered recently with Chinese date inscribed 元大德二年 (1298) on the cannon. This is, however, similar to the bronze cannon of 1332, which also had its date inscription.

Additionally, the Chinese and Mongols took up the use of "true" gunpowder instead of the slower-burning older mixture - which made this early cannon - known as the Huochong - more reliable and powerful. During wartime, the Chinese used the early gunpowder weapons in defense against the Mongols, and the weapon was taken up by the Mongol conquerors later.

JFD 01:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I try. JFD 22:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great job

Great job on the Structural history of the Roman military article. I think it is worthy of GA status, considering how many of the articles that have passed GA status aren't as good as this.--PericlesofAthens 04:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the kind words on the article. I do hope that it reaches GA status but I'm quite happy to have as many suggested improvements posted on it by GA reviewers in the meantime as possible, since its all to the ultimate benefit of the article. There does seem to be a trend, however, of GA/FA statuses getting harder and harder to reacha nd requiring higher and higher standards. I'm all for this, since it means the quality of wikipedia's article is improving, but I do think it means that some older articles fail to live up to the current requirements on their status - see Franks, for instance, which is nominally an FA (!). I think that there should be a policy whereby every GA/FA article should be automatically re-approved annually to make sure that it still lives up to current GA/FA standards. I did make this proposal officially but it was rejected after discussion as being "too much work". Ho hum. Cheers - PocklingtonDan (talk) 09:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Architecture

Hi Pericles! I notice you've only been around for a few months so you are probably still just getting the hang of editting.

• Please go back to the Architecture page, read the list of "See also" that you just added to and make a informed decision as to whether your addition really belongs there. Clue: What type of sites are listed? What type of sites are not listed?

• If you read the list, you might find a different wiki page that would benefit by having the addition.

--Amandajm 08:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

I love Song Sung? (I always thought it was Sung) Dynasty painting. Thank you for your excellent work. Modernist 18:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your Insights

Hey Pericles, "we"'re having some trouble w/ talk:Goguryeo - CPOVs tried to replace the historical term "Manchuria" w/ "Northeast China" --> Since Goguryeo is in Northeast China--> Chinese? (As you know, China is trying to claim Goguryeo as a former Chinese state)

Anyways, the articles Manchuria & Northeast China are separate.

Could you post your thoughts on this? I think you'd make a good judge b/c while you live in the US you have real interests in Chinese history. (Wikimachine 13:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC))

Thanks. I'm still in camp, over in 5 days, so I haven't worked on the drawing yet. Cya around. (Wikimachine 01:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Rfc

If you want to, you can participate in Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jiejunkong. (Wikimachine 03:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Agriculture in China

I recently created this article, and I think you might be able to contribute. Thanks! johnpseudo 18:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliments and help. johnpseudo 19:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

I will try to expand the Song Ci and Collected Cases of Injustice Rectified pages when I can. What pages are you currently writing that correlate with these articles? (Ghostexorcist 23:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Your input is requested

I've recently put a lot of work into improving the article Night of the Long Knives. I put it up for peer review, but haven't seen any comments yet. I see that you have have experience as a peer reviewer and I think that the article could gain from your insights. So, if you have some spare time, your comments would be appreciated. Thanks.--Mcattell 03:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back with me on this. It could probably be expanded even further in the future, although for now I'm fine with just getting it to GA status. If you could post your comments on Peer Review, that would help. Thanks again.--Mcattell 16:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] July 15 DYK

On 15 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Naval history of China, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Wizardman 15:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Song Dynasty and the associated articles (Architecture, Culture, Economy, History, Technology and Society)

Have you ever clicked on an article, read through it and said, "Damn, I wish I had written that article"? Well damn, I wish I had written these articles. If you get them all up to featured or good status, they'd make for an awesome featured topic. --Hemlock Martinis 09:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drawing

Hi Pericles, sorry but I don't have too much time for drawings right now. Best regards. PHG 18:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

On 18 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Wang Chong, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Carabinieri 22:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fomenko

That's a long time you've spent arguing with the Fomenko crazies. Nice job, I guess, although wikipedia isn't a web forum - do you have any contributions to make to the Fomenko articles themselves, or are you just enjoying beating up on idiots? I will admit that the latter has its charms, and that I have engaged in some of it myself, but I fear it's not the point of wikipedia. It's best, I think, to just ignore Poggio, et al, on the talk page, and just revert them when they add stupid nonsense to article pages. I do wish, though, there was a forum somewhere where I could poke holes in stupid chronology revisionist theories...that'd be great fun. Anyway, not meaning to be too chiding - I too enjoy a good rhetorical beating of fringe wackos - just to suggest you might step back and take a deep breath. john k 03:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] please see

• Please see this Ling.Nut 14:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nom

I have placed the Tang Dynasty article, which you nominated, on hold for improvements. Thanks for your work on the article. VanTucky ^(talk) 00:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Choked? That's so weak. At least it could have been something cool like chopped in half by helicopter blades or ripped apart by wild animals. Sheesh. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If you're looking for more to do, I made a comment about adding some other literature references on the talk page. Also, not sure if this is the result of reverts, but the "prosperity periods" issue hasn't been resolved in the intro. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been off-wiki a bit longer than is normal for me. But I will remind you that a hold can stay in place for a maximum of a week, so I'm not really running behind on Tang Dynasty. I will presently be looking it over again. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

On 21 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Chang'an, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 07:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] welcome

No worries. You're welcome, keep up the good work on FA articles. Regarding the article length, I don't think is too long. Anyways, if you think that's too long, you could create sub article for each sections like what you've done on Song Dynasty. Eiorgiomugini 20:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FA for tang dynasty

I've been pretty busy lately, but I'll definitely check in on the article and that discussion. My feeling is that the writing style needs to be significantly improved for a more encyclopedic tone, and a balancing of information about the accomplishments of the dynasty with the more essential detailed recitation of the timeline and political events needs to be done. Right now there is some undue weight. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Night of the Long Knives FAC

Thanks for all your help in providing criticism for Night of the Long Knives. I have nominated it here it for featured article status, and would appreciate your assessment. Thanks, Mcattell 01:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tang Dynasty

An Lushan was part of a Tang's policy in 740s, a policy which implanted foreign comander as governor. An was origiinaly a general under Zhang Shougua, a real experience fighting general of Khitan. The reason for An to became so popular was partly because of Yang Guifei and Xuanzong's decision. Eiorgiomugini 09:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

That's some damn fine work on the Tang Dynasty page! I don't think anybody will be able to match your 8 GA's and 2 FA's. On a separate note, I'm currently writing out a brief bio for Song Ci. I'll expand the page about his book a little, but I can't promise you much. There are so many different editions of it and it covers such a broad topic that it would take me forever to build it up into a decent article.

Oh, before I forget, Zhou Tong (archer) will be the "today's featured article" on July 29. I've noticed that those articles are vandalized A LOT! So I'm going to be on the look out. I have to work Sunday evening, so I'm going to be reaching out to the China Wiki project to help cover the slack. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!! (Ghostexorcist 06:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

Hi PericlesofAthens, sorry for bothering you again, regarding the silk road section, I think the sentence was awfully wrong, this was the reason I changed it. I hope you don't mind my changes. Eiorgiomugini 20:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking of something to be done with the long note section, eg. Wikipedia. Eiorgiomugini 20:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] De Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum

I need more information on this work by Roger Bacon, I heard that most of his works were not published until the 17th century, and some of them might had even problem to attribute it to him. According to this link http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm, there is a picture from a "attributed 1326 manuscript", but how reliable are they? This picture can be seen also at History of gunpowder, probably should be removed straightaway to aviod copyright. Eiorgiomugini 12:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

People could just cut the image from the original size anyway. I don't know, maybe creating an article for the mythical De Nobilitatibus, Sapientii et Prudentiis Regum is the best opinion we could have, but so far there's not much of the information on plently of European books available which I could find. How was it transmitted? How much copies were made from one language to another? How was it accurately copied from different languages? Which are the earliest extant language/script editon? Was there information provided from preface about the attribution? Eiorgiomugini 00:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

On 26 July 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Su Shi, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Carabinieri 15:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An Lushan

Hi, I don't know what do you think, would you mind sharing you opinion on the ongoing discussion at An Lushan, the main conflicting is that should "Iranian" mention in the introductory lines or under the "note section". Thanks. Eiorgiomugini 12:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I do know, that was I thought, maybe Brittanica is trying to say he is of Iranian speaking Sogdian rather than just Sogdian[1]. But I don't understand the use of Turkish anyway, although they do have separated article for both Turk empire (Tang era) and Turkish entities. Eiorgiomugini 00:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Geez, the issue had been solved by me, but this guy now wanted to bring up another absurdity quarrel on whether Kang should be linked to Kangju, it should be noted that there's a absence of any proof that they were connected, I found it amaze, that he could even talk about contradiction, when he was the one who are being contradicting with the source he provided since the very beginning. What do you think? Would you mind to share your own opinion? Eiorgiomugini 05:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright sure, will be out for a while this few days. Eiorgiomugini 15:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Song Dynasty GA nominations

Since no one else jumped at the chance, I decided to take on all the Song Dynasty related articles you nominated. VanTucky ^(talk) 00:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I've passed Culture of the Song Dynasty after taking care of some grammar work myself. VanTucky ^(talk) 01:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

I just got home from work and read your post. I'll look through the book but there is no telling where exactly it came from. I'll try to get the correct citations to you as quick as I can. I hope your article passes. --Ghostexorcist 07:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been looking for the quotations for a while. Like I said, there is no telling where the specific quotes came from. There are 53 different sections in the book. Apart from that, one author might have rendered a certain phrase differently in translation, which makes it even harder. --Ghostexorcist 13:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I don’t mind helping you at all. You don’t owe me anything. I just wish I had the time and determination to do what you have with all of the Song related articles.

Do you have any books by Dr. Brian E. McKnight? Besides his translation on Song Ci’s forensic book, I have:

1. The Enlightened Judgements: Ching-ming Chi - The Sung Dynasty Collection $32.95 (ISBN 0791442446) (567 p.) - Description of court cases and their judgments from the late Song.
2. Law and Order in Sung China $160 (ISBN 0521411211) (557 p.) - Description of the legal system, training of sheriff's deputies, forms of punishments depending on social rank (death, beating, exile, jail, penal tattooing, forced military service, etc.).
3. Village and Bureaucracy in Southern Sung China $25.00 (ISBN 0226560600) (230 p.) - Description of social structure within villages and how they worked with the government. Has a good section on how people were conscripted to work as village leaders, sheriff's deputies, and other jobs (based on social rank).

Apart from McKnight's books, I have:

1. A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China $100 (ISBN 0804711933) (676 p.) - Basically a huge dictionary on every official title ever given in Chinese history (including the Song Dynasty). It also has a diagram showing how each dynasty's government spread out it's power to lesser and greater offices. It even gives titles for the people who took care of government horses.

Some of these books are very costly (especially if they are not being used for college courses), but they are worth it if you are looking for very specific info. --Ghostexorcist 17:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fomenko again

Pericles - Poggio is genuinely annoying, but there's not much point in just launching personal attacks on him. There's not really much point in engaging at all. If we're going to use that talk page for anything, it should be about improving the article, not about insulting Poggio. john k 18:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right, because the former use is the correct one for wikipedia. I left you a message on your talk page.--PericlesofAthens 19:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Navbox

What do you think of this? --Hemlock Martinis 00:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

v • d • e Song Dynasty topics Architecture · Culture · Economy · History · Society · Technology

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Liaodi Pagoda.jpg

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[edit] Your GA nomination of Architecture of the Song Dynasty

The article Architecture of the Song Dynasty you nominated as a good article has passed , see Talk:Architecture of the Song Dynasty for eventual comments about the article. Well done! VanTucky ^(talk) 16:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Crap, there was one thing I forgot to fix before I approved the article as GA. According to the WP:MOS, quotations longer than four lines should block quotes. Can you please fix this in the "...of the Song Dynasty" articles, especially the architecture one, where you see it? Thanks a bundle, VanTucky ^(talk) 19:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your GA nomination of Society of the Song Dynasty

The article Society of the Song Dynasty you nominated as a good article has failed , see Talk:Society of the Song Dynasty for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of said article. If you oppose this decision, you may ask for a review. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your GA nomination of Economy of the Song Dynasty

The article Economy of the Song Dynasty you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold. It hasn't failed because it's basically a good article, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within seven days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Economy of the Song Dynasty for things needed to be addressed. VanTucky ^(talk) 20:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your GA nomination of Economy of the Song Dynasty

The article Economy of the Song Dynasty you nominated as a good article has passed , see Talk:Economy of the Song Dynasty for eventual comments about the article. Well done! VanTucky ^(talk) 00:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of ferrous metallurgy

Hi,

This is in response to Don't remove this pic again Alastair, or I'll have you arrested. Lol. Just kidding, but seriously, don't remove it again while hiding it under "clean up"

In my defence, the image was missing before I even began editing on that article. The image has been missing since at least 9:12, 26 July 2007, which would be well before I made my first edit to the article (4:39, 27 July 2007).

On checking again, I don't even see two images in the China section in this edit that you made on 6:30, 15 July 2007.

Alastair J. Campbell 08:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. Judging from this, you have used the sources at your disposal to greatly add to the overall quality of the article. Keep up the good work, Alastair J. Campbell 09:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great article

Eric, your article 'Tang Dynasty' is great. I am a new Wikipedian and I joined Wikipedia on July 15, 2007. I think you are doing a great job. Keep it up. RS2007 09:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Freer 009.jpg

Thank you for uploading images/media such as Image:Freer 009.jpg to Wikipedia! There is however another Wikimedia foundation project called Wikimedia Commons, a central media repository for all free media. In the future, please consider creating an account and uploading media there instead. That way, all the other language Wikipedias can use them too, as well as our many sister projects. This will also allow our visitors to search for, view and use our media in one central location. If you wish to move previous uploads to Commons, see Wikipedia:Moving images to the Commons. Please note that non-free content, such as images claimed as fair use, cannot be uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons. Help us spread the word about Commons by informing other users, and please continue uploading!

[edit] Freer Gallery of Art images

Since I took the photos myself, I was planning on moving them, or placing them in Wikimedia Commons in the first place. However, when I went to the Commons upload page to download the first of these images under the tab for "I created the image" or what not, there was a box to the right that specifically stated that photos of artwork and statues were forbidden from being loaded. I was somewhat perplexed by this, since I've seen tons of artwork and statues in Commons that were uploaded to Commons using the same license that I'm using. However, I did not want to take chances and did not want my work to be deleted, so I decided to load them on wikipedia instead, where this is not an issue.

Can you please tell me why Commons is so strict about downloading artwork and statues?--PericlesofAthens 19:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Because not all artwork or statues are out of copyright. I find it odd that images of PD art would be prohbited, perhaps if you could clarify the status of any works in your photo, you would be able to convince them? No worries about it staying on enwiki if Commons can't take them. Sfan00 IMG 19:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Sfan00 IMG#Freer Gallery of Art images

Hi, I am a commons administrator. "Photos of artwork and statues" are only prohibited if the artwork/statue itself is copyrighted. A 1000 year old vase would not be copyrighted anymore as over 70 years have passed since the authors death. Feel free to page me on my talk page if you need more info. -- Cat ^chi? 19:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POTD notification

Hi Pericles,

Just to let you know that the Featured Picture Image:Along the River 7-119-3.jpg is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on August 16, 2007. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2007-08-16. howcheng {chat} 23:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK - Yan Zhitui

On 7 August 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Yan Zhitui, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Circeus 03:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chang'an

Make a few sectioning changes in Chang'an, hope you won't mind. I had see that you've got all Song Dynasty related articles to GA nomination, keep it up, that article hasn't been updated since year ago or maybe more. Happy editing. Eiorgiomugini 22:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Society of the Song Dynasty

I looked it over, and it does look better. But I'm a little burnt out on ancient Chinese history articles in general. VanTucky ^(talk) 04:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

One question: did you get your GA barnstar before or after I passed the Tang and various Song Dynasty articles? VanTucky ^(talk) 04:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

		The Good Article Medal of Merit
		I, VanTucky, award you PericlesofAthens, this barnstar for your excellent work on multiple Good Articles related to the Tang and Song Dynasties. VanTucky (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I have been poring over the book off and on for the last couple of weeks and I haven’t found anything that exactly matches the two quotes, just certain snippets located on different pages. However, I have found some alternate passages at your request ...

The examination was conducted in the open, in the presence of an assembled group that included at a minimum the clerks, the official attendants, the [coroner’s assistant] (or midwife), the accused, the chief village servicemen, and the relatives of the deceased. As the examination proceeded, the results were called out aloud by the attendants and noted down on the inquest report. (pg. 12)

-- This is actually from the translator’s introduction, but it does a much better job of summing up info that takes up at least two full pages. Take note of the bolded spots and then read the following passage:

At the inquest the formal symbols of imperial majesty were not so overwhelming, but being questioned immediately before the rotting corpse of his supposed victim and in the presence of the victim’s relatives, friends, and neighbors might well qualify as a kind of psychological torture, less disfiguring than judicial beatings, but perhaps as likely to elicit truthful answers. (pp. 19-20)

-- This is the translator’s opinion, but it is a powerful observation that should be noted.

In all doubtful and difficult inquests, as well as when influential families are involved in the dispute, [the deputed official] must select reliable and experienced coroner’s assistants and Recorders of good character who are circumspect and self-possessed to accompany him…Call a brief halt and wait for the involved parties to arrive. Otherwise, there will be requests for private favors. Supposing an examination is held to get the facts, the clerks will sometimes accept bribes to alter the reports of the affair. If the officials and clerks suffer for their crimes, that is a minor matter. But, if the facts are altered, the judicial abuse may cost someone his life. Factual accuracy is supremely important. (pg. 72)

-- This is actually from Song Ci. I think it should be emphasized that the "involved parties" should be noted as being all of the people mentioned in the first passage if you decide not to quote it.

Citation

Sun Tz’u. The Washing Away of Wrongs. Trans. Brian E. McKnight. An Arbor, 1981 (ISBN 0892648007)

I hope this helps. --Ghostexorcist 19:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The book also includes ancient forms of the body diagram that modern day coroners use to annotate where wounds are located on the corpse. This includes, front, back, and skeletal drawings. If I can find someone who has a scanner, I will email them to you. This page shows the front cover, on which you can see one of the diagrams. --Ghostexorcist 20:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tong Guan

Do you know anything about Tong Guan? I just made up a brief article as the article was about a fictional character and was written in 2005. Since it had not been added to since then, I went ahead and changed it to fit your Song Dynasty article. Maybe you have something to add to it, or perhaps you could at least check it. Thanks! Sincerely, Mattisse 16:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arthur Wright

Confucian Personalities is a pretty good book. I only tracked it down because of the Yue Fei bio, but it had nice bios for other people as well. I read about both of the Yue Fei papers that I mentioned on the China History Forum in McKnight's Law and Order in Sung China.

Speaking of Yue, if you want to get a feel for what his personality was like, read Hellmut Wilhelm's research paper on him. It talks about how Yue patterned his life after famous heroes of dynasties past (which ultimately lead to his martyrdom) and that he is recorded in wanting to be considered the peer of his hero, Guan Yu. He had a drinking problem as a younger man because he thought excessive alcohol consumption matched that of his heroes. But after nearly killing a fellow military commander, the emperor himself supposedly made Yue promise never to drink alcohol again until the stolen northern lands were returned to Chinese hands. It also says he never continued to mature as an adult. Once he set a goal, he would fanatically pursue it to the end. Even if it was the wrong course (despite the suggestions of his officers), he wouldn't stop. There were many times that he overstepped his rank and sent several petitions to the capital demanding the emperor take action or to choose an heir. This "one-mindedness" got him demoted on several occasions, but he would turn around and kick ass and then get promoted again. Part of a long list of reasons that he was executed is that he compared himself to the Song's founder, Taizu. The court found this statement particularly treasonous since, if read a certain way, it could imply aspirations to rebel and take over.

I've always wanted to write a "what if" sort of story where Yue conquers the Jin and then turns on the corrupt Song to start a new dynasty. From peasant to Emperor, like Taizu. --Ghostexorcist 19:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to think an Emperor Yue would rule a utopian-like society since he was a nice blend of military man and scholar (though Prof. James Liu doesn't believe Yue was as highly educated as widely believed), but I think the "one-mindedness" stuff would come back to bite him in the ass! --Ghostexorcist 19:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I have created a new topic on CHF about the "what if" story and would like people to add their own ideas. I just started the outline, I'm just waiting to see what other members come up with. --Ghostexorcist 05:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you've popped by the "what if" thread on CHF, but I've decided that if Yue truly loved the Han Dynasty so much (as explained in various research papers) that he would have ended the Song and created the ...

GREAT HAN DYNASTY (大汉, 114? - ? CE)

As I'm sure you know, there was a Late Han Dynasty, so it would have to be known under a different title. Just prior to the Ming Dynasty, some rebels associated with the Hongwu Emperor actually founded the very brief "Great [later] Song Dynasty" (大宋, 1355-1368?). --Ghostexorcist 02:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Augustus

Ah, thanks. I was just editing the section, so I didn't see how it interacted with the image above. By the way, I noticed there's several busts showing Augustus wearing the civic crown, but the article only mentions that he was allowed to hang it above his door, nothing about being allowed to wear it. Do you know if this is just an omission or just later artists projecting other emperors' practice of wearing the crown back onto Augustus? — Laura Scudder ☎ 21:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wujing Zongyao

Your Song article is so great that I keep going back to it. I'm wondering if you could work in Wujing Zongyao under "Military" (besides in the image caption) when you talk of "Military strategy and military training were treated as science that could be studied and perfected..." as it is a wonderful article. This has been an enlightening experience. I am fascinated by these articles of yours. Sincerely, Mattisse 23:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You should do it, since you know how. Plus, isn't there a similar article on architectural writings? I remember seeing the images from that somewhere. --Mattisse 17:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I saw it when I was reading the various links in the Chinese articles but I don't know where. I'll see if I can find it. It was not one of yours, I don't believe. --Mattisse 17:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I found what I was thinking of User:PericlesofAthens/Gallery. Some great architectural diagrams from Joseph Needham. Mattisse 19:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I know. How come you don't have an article Yingzao Fashi? Mattisse 19:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind if I started it? (It would be pathetic because I know nothing about Chinese history.) Then you could fix it up when you have time. --Mattisse 19:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal critique

I would like to congratulate and aknowledge my respect for your work on wikipedia but I have a little criticism regarding one aspect of the articles you improve. Plain and simply the maps. I feel they are substandard. I would recommend with the outmost respect that you request better ones from the many mapmakers on wikipedia. Examples that come to mind are the fabolous maps such as this Image:India-states-numbered.svg. Hope you understand where I'm coming from and it is of your choice to pay any attention to my humble opinion. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.13.91.167 (talk) 15:55:28, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Well since you ask I personally dislike the below 3 the most:

Image:Tang dynasty1.PNG - Seems very amateurish to me, like it was done in Windows Paint. Black water?!?

Image:China 11a.jpg - Picture has a strange thick shadow border around it which I dislike. The water effect is nice but the deeper water is the one that is suppose to look darker, no? Very unpleasant color scheme that also makes the text hard to read.

Image:Augusto 30aC - 6dC 55%CS jpg.JPG - Has a lot of artifacts. Difficult to read.

I prefer high resolution maps that have light color schemes around the area of attention and a solid yet (black text friendly) color scheme on the actual area of attention. I also prefer border lines around territory and where land meets water, not how in the Tang dynasty map a color abruptly stops to indicate the end of land/territory. Of course I'm not asking you to become a professional map maker to satisfy my own standards for maps. In no way am I demanding the above images to be replaced but just wanted to indicate that I just thought the articles deserved better, hoping you would agree with my opinion. Thanks for replying. 74.13.91.167 19:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm glad you agree the maps can be improved. There are couple projects where you can request maps to made if you wish. Wikipedia:Graphic Lab, Wikipedia:WikiProject Illustration and Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps. The last one is probably the most appropriate. 74.13.91.167 20:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Architecture of the Song Dynasty

Great! That would be awesome if you could use your new books to help out this article. I put a good amount of work into it already. What exactly do you think it is lacking in? So far it covers Song Dynasty pagoda towers, bridges, tombs, Song literature on architecture, and architecture in Song artwork.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 17:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Really, it looks very good so far, and I'm sure you could continue it successfully without my help. It might take me more than a week to get up to speed from working on other things. Well here's what I'm thinking at the moment. Since it is an imperial subject it should emphasise information on palaces and urban planning in capitol cities. The title makes it sound like it would be the architecture of the dynasty as opposed to architecture in [the years of] the dynasty. It seems more like the latter, about architecture in the time period not of the dynasty. From Chinese Palaces I found mention of Kaifeng Imperial Palace (東京大内皇宮), imperial palace of the Northern Song Dynasty and Hangzhou Imperial Palace (臨安大内禁宮), imperial palace of the Southern Song Dynasty. Both of which are red links at the moment, so more information about these is desirable. Another type of building to add in addition to palaces to the coverage may be temples. The Confucian temple in Qufu, was expanded under the Song Dynasty, and maybe the Song additions can be described in the text and determined and highlighted on a version of this [2] or this [3] map. These look like good additional references [4] [5]—if I were spending time on this I would use them. But like I said, it might take me a couple of weeks of research before I get started, but you have my offer to help. D. Recorder 19:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)