User talk:Parthava

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Hello Parthava! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page ,or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Jerry 00:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC) Getting started Wikipedia tutorial • The five pillars of Wikipedia How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting help Frequently asked questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Fair use • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Building consensus • Resolving disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Pages needing attention • Peer review Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Merry Christmas!--86.29.253.152 (talk) 14:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

You maybe do not know the definition of "unintelligible" in English. It means totally "incomprehensible, baffling, undecipherable." Mazandarani Persian and Tehran Persian are different dialects of the same language. While different, it is too extreme to call them "unintelligible." Chinese and Persian would be "unintelligible." Unfortunately one incorrect article by some student at Columbia University is being cited as evidence over and over again and presented on Wikipedia as fact.

Please change this word. In English, it makes it seem like Mazandarani has nothing to do with Persian, which is incorrect. Te dast dard nakane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyisnotbad (talk • contribs) 08:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of Parthava and his sanskrit theories and rude attitude. But I should say that mazandarani and Tehrani persian are not both dialects of the same language. Mazandarani is a northwest Iranian language, while Farsi is a southwest Iranian language. You can say that Farsi is the same language as Bakhtiari and Loru /Luri, but not with Mazandarani, Kurdish or Baluchi--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mazandarani

Parthava, I can see your anger when a tehrani says to a Mazandarani that you are wrong about your language. I chose your side now. Not because I like you or hate you, but because your vision was correct. But please try to be less stubborn and rude. Also I am interetd to know more about the fact that the elderl Mazandarani call mazandarani language Gilaki., I have heard this also before but could not find any reliable sources confirming that. So if you have sources please. But I unlike other users also accredit field research and oral history. I do not really care whether they call it original research or not, what matters for me is to check the reliability about a core of truth.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

dear Parthava I have supported your case with regard to mazandarani language. nevertheless, if you go on with your careless manner of edits, deleting all sources materials and pushing your own theories (e.g. your Sanskrit theory) You will not have my support any more. Therfore I suggest revert the edits to my last edits, which were in accordance with the core of your POV--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonesense, calling it gileki or mazanderani is not so much important, So i don't waste my time for it, And also i added those refrences first, And that man used it to frauding all of the readers of this article, Yes people in tehran may be right, because Mazanderan TV's mazanderani programs are actually resembling dialect rather than to be language, you can see it's channel, and you can understand almost all OF it, and then compare it with mazanderani wikipedia, I'm not stubborn, Just like when you talk about georgian heritage, that persian guy (or gay, Since his notes in mzn wp reflects Eva Khahari) thinks that iranians are persians both you & this man's ideas boring me, These such theories couldn't help to be unified, And then it provides more chances to those pan-turks you & this man remarked before --Parthava (talk) 07:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is my "ideas" are boring to you. I simply supported you POV on Mazandarani language, but formulated in a nice way.This is what I'm asking. BTW the Mazandarani TV was not easily intelligible to me--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking that you are a resonable man, Although i appreciate your efforts to stoping these such such sorts of vandalisms, Unfortunately this not means that we could have compromise in some ideas about georgian ... in ... mazandaran, And i never deny their existence, If you watch mazandaran TV, you may saw some mazanderani musicians who have GAARJI name (mazanderani for georgian) Specially see Selam Mazenderuni. (19:30 EuTZ) --Parthava (talk) 08:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

did we talk about the Mazandarani georgians here? Or we talked about the Mazandarani language? And I do not understand in what way you opposes Georgian Mazandaranis, if you yourself admits that many Mazandaranis bear the ethnonym Gaarji (Gorji)? --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote, Honestly i wasn't here and i didn't follow what's up last two weeks, Hence since you started this topic, i didn't understand some of your notes, maybe i replied inaccurately, But i am sure there is no tehrani, All are immigrants, Tehran's native language was mazanderani, i don't tell this simply search the web, If there is a tehrani, So i'm one of them, Could you believe when we talk mazanderani with friends in tehran streets people ask us: Are you jewish? Do you speak Hebrew? Even some call us russians, these are who never heared another language except persian because in tehran many of people in street speak mazanderani (Eastern Gileki) --Parthava (talk) 09:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

>>>those Tehranis who say that mazandarani sounds like Hebrew are not intelligent. mazandarani does not sound like Hebrew. But about the original language of Tehran. I think it is true to some extent what you said. Languages of the mountaineous northern part of Tehran province has close to mazandarani, but that of the lower areas was called Razi or Raji. That was the language of Rey. It is asumed to be close to Delijani and other Central Iranian languages. It was not Farsi. Tehrani people who act irresponsible and make jokes about other Iranians too often say that they speak true Farsi or Persian. yet the irony is that they too often are Azeris, sometimes Mazandarani, Kurds, Esfahani, Shirazi etc... who deny their origins. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mazandarani v.s. Persian

Not only is Mazandarani Persian the original language of Tehran, but Tehran itself was part of Mazandaran Province until 1960, when the Shah created the new "Markazi" Province which back then included Tehran.

However, that is not the issue. The issue is whether you can use "unintelligible" to describe the relationship between the type of Persian spoken in Mazandaran and the type of Persian spoken in Tehran or Isfahan. Both are dialects of the same Persian language. While they have many regional differences of vocabulary as all dialects do, they are not totally different languages which are "unintelligible." "Mutually unintelligible" would be Mazandarani Persian and, for example, Chinese.

People in Mazandaran can understand Tehrani Persian. And even people in Tehran can understand most of Mazandaran's Persian dialect. Mazandarani Persian sentences like "Khoda tere hefz hakane" or "Te dast dar nakane" are not "unintelligible" to speakers of other dialects of Persian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 00:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the word "Persian" in English and other European langauges has always meant the same as the Persian word "Irani." The word "Iranian" is a 20th century term with no historical backing whatsoever in English or European languages. Same for the word "Farsi" - it should be referred to as "Persian" when speaking English.

"Irani" in Persian = "Persian" in English, as in farsh-e-Irani = Persian Rug, not Iranian Rug "Parsi" / "Farsi" in Persian = "Persian" in English —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 02:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Persian is the name to pointing many specific iranian things, As we use MAZERUN BABER, English people use persian tiger, But you can't stop using iranian instead of persian, the correct term is iranian, Even many of iranian-americans (as you resemble those, i used this example) when talking farsi they state "Irani sohbat nakon", They don't use "farsi sohbat nakon" no longer, And all of these issues have nothing to do with ethnic and language, Also german Vielen Dank (Many Thanks) which has same meaning of mazanderani "Te des dar nakene" is not "unintelligible" to english speakers (Babank knows better than me Netherlandish is a german dialect but they call it a different language), We don't use the first pharse, maybe you mean "Xəda təre biyele ami vese" --Parthava (talk) 15:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

it is not important what the English usage was, linguistically Iranian languages are divided into two main groups; Eastern and Western (maybe three if Armenian is counted as an Iranian language). East Iranian (e.g. Ossetian, Pamiri) is unintelligible with West Iranian (e.g. Kurdish, Persian, Mazandarani, Baluchi etc...). Each of these two groups are divided into the southern and northern branch. The South west Iranian group contains Persian, Lori, Bakhtiari, Larestani, Tat and Kumzari. These are mutually intelligible You can say they are dialects of the same language. Northwestern Iranian languages are themselves divided into many sub-branches: Kurdish (Sorani and Kurmanji), Zaza-Gorani (Zaza, Gowrani dialects of Kermanshahan) (Laki as an transitory language between Zaza-Gorani, Kurdish and Lori), Baluchi, Talysh (which includes Talysh proper and Old Azeri, as well as the Iranian languages in Azerbaijan , Zanjan and Qazvin provinces), Then you have central Iranian languages (Razi, Semnani, and those in the Kavir especially the Yazdi of Zoroastrians) (Hormozgani is transitory between southwest Iranian, and central Iranian, with Swahili influences), Finally you have the Caspian group (Mazandarani and Gilaki). Mazandarani and Rashti dialect of Gilaki is influenced by Standard Persian, but liguistically they are rather far. They are not mutually totally unintelligible, but they are certainly not a dialect of Persian.To Parthava: I guess you mean Semnan province; Semnan province was part of mazandaran province in reza Shah's time. Also Golestan was part of mazandaran until recently.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I compared tehrani persian with some isfahanis, Although i found some rural isfahanis have same words as mazanderani has, but not standard persian, I also found that they don't use many pharses in tehrani, Even they cann't guess what is their meanings, one speciman recently i found is DaarQuz Kela, It's like when you use isfahani Taab khordan, when you use it in tehran people fool you, But not Charxidan (Mazanderani: Charxesen) --Parthava (talk) 15:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

it is not important what the English usage was;;;;;

Yes the English usage is very important. After, you are writing in an English language wiktionary for English speakers. In the English language, "Persian" means "Irani."

I agree with linguistically Persian language types are divided into two main groups; Eastern and Western. Our debate is whether the word "Persian" can be used for "Irani" or "Iranian" when speaking English. It is and can be used interchangeably. You think "Persian" only means "Fars" and that is an incorrect understanding based on misunderstandings of foreigners such as the British and pan-Turks seeking to divide Iran.

As for being "intelligible", I agree certain Persian dialects such as Kurdish are not intelligible with modern standard Persian. However, Mazandarani Persian is not at that point of difference with standard Persian to be considerely completely "unintellgible." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 00:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC) >>>>>No reliable sources call Iranian languages as persian languages. Persian is one Iranian language, and there are more. I do not care if a clown in Los Angeles's Cabaret tehran calls Iranian_ Persian. In Linguistic fi8elds, we speak about the Iranian languages.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Babakexorramdin you can't even speak proper English please do not propose to teach English speakers about English language terminology such as the use of the term "Persian." Any references to "Iranian" in linguistics literature are modern changes in terminology. The very word "Iranian" is a fabrication created by English-speakers to replace the term "Persian" after Reza Shah demanded the international name of Persia to change to Iran in 1935. Before that, the word "Iranian" did not even exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 04:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This nonsense shows your ignorance. Honestly this level is very high. Ferdowsi e.g. said Cho IRAN nabashed tane man mabad. Nezami Ganjavi said Hame a;am tan esto IRAN del. Safavid Shahs were called Shah-e Iran. In Qajar era Iran was called Iran. Noone said cho Persia nabashad tane man mabad. One more time nonsense and personal attack I will report you. BYE and why don't you register and sign your edits? Anonymous and especially unsigned comments are not accepted in wikipedia. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Babak, don't you think I KNOW that? Again, you are misunderstanding me. All those people you cite are PERSIAN speakers, not ENGLISH speakers. Of course "Iran" is what Persian speakers call the country for centuries, in their own language. But ENGLISH speakers, and the rest of the Western world, called the country "Persia" and the people "Persian" for centuries. So in Persian, it is "Iran" and "Irani." But the same thing in ENGLISH, it was "Persia" and "Persian."

Iran is not the only country which has a different name for itself in its own langauge. In Japan, the Japanese themselves call their country "Nippon" while the rest of the world calls them Japan. In Germany, the Germans themselves call their country "Deutschland" while the rest of the world calls them either Germany or "Allmane."

Do you understand the point? For English speakers to call Persians "Iranian" it is as modern and fake and confusing a term as it would be if the Japanese suddenly demanded everyone in the world call them "Nipponese." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 15:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Still in English sources we speak about the IRANIAN languages. This is the accepted English terminology uses in Linguistics. In wikipedia we should use the appropriate name. And honestly this terminology is more appropriate because it distinguishes between the Persian (Farsi) language and other Iranian languages Such as mazandarani, Kurdish, etc... --Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Does Britannica have to put up with this? [1] J.delanoy^gabs_adds 15:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, The best example is britannica that used iranian term, Kamran, this disscussion is time consuming, we must open a remark on this IP to discussing on his vandalisms, this is the final way to stoping wasting our great times --Parthava (talk) 19:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

He is absolutely wrong about the languages. However, I do agree generally with what he says about the neoconservative Taheri. Another thing is that it is counterproductive when a Nigerian mingles himself in these disputes, only because he and 68.... are at odds with each other.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please read

In English, this language, culture, and people have always been known as “Persian” (‘Persane’ in French and ‘Persisch’ in German’). But many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use ‘Farsi’ to identify their language in English and the word became commonplace in English-speaking countries.

In the West when one speaks of ‘Persian Language’, people can immediately connect it with several famous aspects of that culture and history such as Persian Gulf, Persian Carpet, Persian food, Persian poetry, Persian cat, etc. But “Farsi” (and "Iranian") is void of such link which is only obvious for people in Persia (Iran) and a few other nations in the Middle East.

The Academy of the Persian Language and Literature (Farhangestan) in Tehran has also delivered a pronouncement on this matter and rejected any usage of the word “Farsi” instead of Persian/Persa/Persane/Persisch in the Western languages. The first paragraph of the pronouncement states: “PERSIAN has been used in a variety of publications including cultural, scientific and diplomatic documents for centuries and, therefore, it connotes a very significant historical and cultural meaning. Hence, changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ is to negate this established important precedence. Changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ may give the impression that it is a new language, and this may well be the intention of some Farsi users…”

Fortunately all International broadcasting radios with Persian language service (e.g. VOA, BBC, DW, RFE/RL, etc.) use “Persian Service”, in lieu of the incorrect “Farsi Service.” That is also the case for the American Association of Teachers of Persian, The Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, and several American and European notable universities.

Some mistakably believe that, in English, the official language of Iran should be called “Farsi,” while the language spoken in Tajikistan or Afghanistan should be labeled as “Dari." Actually “Persian” should be utilized to refer to all of them! However, the difference between the Persian spoken in Iran, Afghanistan, or Tajikistan is not significant and substantial enough to warrant such a distinction and classification. Consider the following case. An Egyptian and a Qatari engage in a conversation in Arabic. They will encounter a great deal of difficulties in comprehending each other. Despite this fact, however, the language used in their conversation is referred to as “Arabic.” No one will even attempt to classify their respective dialects separately and refer to them as “Qatari” and “Egyptian”! On the other hand, Persians, Tajiks or Afghans can converse in Persian and easily understand each other. Then, why should their dialects be classified separately and referred to by different names?

In English, usage of "Iranian" or “Farsi” in place of “Persian,” that has been common since 1980s, is as inaccurate and odd as using “Farsi Gulf” or "Iranian Gulf" instead of “Persian Gulf.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 23:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

dont talk nonsense please. No one in English calls the Persian language as Iranian. Iranian is a languuage group, one of which is Persian. There is a pronlem with FARSI. That term is propagated by the Iranian Americans such as Reza Pahlevi, but lacks any importance. It is Persian language in English, and Iranian languages group--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey man, you forgot that arabs are attemting to changing persian gulf to the arabian gulf, why you don't say anything about it ? why du aren't there for petition about it? Because you can just vandalaize the local culture, And all of you haven't enough strength to defeat iranian cultural enemies, for instance in recent years of afghanistan many of common persian words faded and recent pashto words replaced, google.af's default language is pashto! I think you are living in atlantic region states (you resembling them) So far i am not sure that you can contact google or not --Parthava (talk) 06:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you spoke to the person by IP 68.... because you know that I am not in Atlantic region. But if you asked me. Yes I am aware of the Persian Gulf issue. There are other people in wikipedia dealing with that. I am mainly about the ethnic groups of Iran, diaspora, discrimination. I am less into political issues --Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I just mean that user --Parthava (talk) 05:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re. Your protection of Mazanderani

Hello. I am sorry, but I must decline your request. Full protection is the only adequate measure against an edit war, which I identified in this article (not vandalism). Also, please read [meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version this] about the definition of right or wrong version of the protected article. Thank you. Regards, Húsönd 13:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry Parthava, but the situation here qualifies as content dispute, not vandalism, so the adequate measure against it is full protection to the article. You must now discuss your disagreements at the talk page of the article, or perhaps start a request for comment in order to attract further input from other users. Regards, Húsönd 14:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] yahoo

You added me on yahoo, where are you man?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

How about you, Where are you, too? I am abit busy in the rest of may and upcoming june, We must keep in touch ;) --Parthava (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Man keep in touch.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Now, i'm there, it's my pleasure to keep contacting you --Parthava (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

then send a PM,--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've sent one! --Parthava (talk) 16:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dari Jerr Midi Khodeto Na??

Nooshe joon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 15:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)