Talk:Osiris

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Contents 1 date in first paragraph 2 Mystery Religion 3 Orion, Osiris 4 Isis and Osiris, impregnation 5 Biblical Parallels 6 "Legend" of Osiris and Isis 7 Disambiguation 8 Father of Anubis 9 Entry Story Style 10 Osiris's Name 11 166.70.243.229's additions 12 God of the dead, not God of death 13 Sep or Centipede 14 Osiris in popular culture 15 Contradiction 16 Osirian sacrament 17 The real story of Isis & Osiris 18 Deletion of Osiris in popular culture section

[edit] date in first paragraph

Is this date BC? I know nothing about this topic, but feel this should be added if true, even if the context makes it clear.

Done. Don't be afraid to edit articles, be bold! Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 19:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mystery Religion

A Mystery Religion is a cult whose beliefs and practices are fully known only to initiates. That may have been a typical Greek and later Roman idea, and possibly not Egyptian. The cult of Isis and Osiris was not a mystery religion, until Greek visitors in Persian and Hellenic times started off this idea, and until the Greeks and Romans took over the cult. The writings of Diodorus should not be considered as fully objective history. Diodorus (and others before and after him, Herodotus...) set out with the idea to prove that the Greek religion (and science, philosophy...) drew from ancient Egyptian sources, and the Egyptian priests, humiliated by the Persians, and Macedonians were only happy to beef up their own national pride by telling stories that Diodorus & al. wanted to hear. They saw similarities between Egypt and Greece everywhere, and did not mention important differences, as that did not fit in their ideas. As there were no Mysteries, or no real Egyptian "philosophy", it had to be made up in later times. The work of the Egyptian half-god Hermes Trismegistus was identified as a Greek work (hence some kind of forgery) by Casaubon in the 16th century. But the Egyptian Mystery idea had become a myth on its own, giving input to Rosicrucian and Freemason rites. As it does not really exist, it is even subject of conspiracy theories, like those around Afrocentrism: "the Europeans have wiped out all trace of it". Concretely: we might change the title into "Hellenistic influence: Mystery religion" and make it clear that the Greeks brought in this idea?

You should sign your contribution with four of ~. I think it completely correct that the term mystery religion is not justified in the article, which is a bit all over the place anyway. It is better to try to understand Egyptian Religion from the Egyptian religion itself as it is possible that the Greek commentators did not understand it anyway. Jeremy Naydler's book on the Shamanic Wisdom in the pyramid Texts is quite good on this I think. Apepch7 (talk) 15:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Orion, Osiris

I would seriously hesitate to mention that Osiris is related to Orion without citation in this article. Considering the similarities across myths through cultures throughout the world, one should probably not mix the two. Orion was a caveman in Greek mythology, Osiris is written up as much more civilized. It would seem that the two are at odds with one another, and possibly from the point of view of evolution, two competing branches of what would eventually become Homo Sapiens defacto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.218.238 (talk) 05:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. I recently read an article that asserted this and decided to do some fact checking. I couldn't find any evidence at all to back it up. 190.129.70.253 (talk) 01:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Isis and Osiris, impregnation

I found accounts on the internet http://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/keywords/osiris/horus%20the%20son%20of%20isis%20and%20osiris.php which contradict the version in here and make more sense. You see the problem is that Osiris' Penis got eaten by a fish so how could he have impregnated Isis? Well, she impregnated herself apparently using semen from his dead body. Sorry to put you guys off your tea. Given that this makes far more sense (bear in mind the Egyptians were mentalists)I've altered the version slightly.

No one pretends to monopolize what the Egyptians thought. There are at least three different Egyptian creation myths. Further, there's nothing preventing contradictions from occuring in a mythology (most evolving mythologies are rife with them). Add your version, but don't replace the old one. JustSomeKid 22:56, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical Parallels

"It has been claimed that the Egyptian deity Osiris had almost the same life-story as Jesus, including his conception, birth, ministry, death and resurrection. Some historians claim that this is because the New Testament incorporated these beliefs in order to appeal to pagan converts. Other historians claim the stories are very dissimilar. Many Christians would also observe that Christianity emerged from Judaism and made its first appeal to Jews, and that incorporating Egyptian stories would probably have made the religion less attractive to its first converts."

Who has made this claim? I've read several expositions on how these and other stories are similar in paganism and christianity, but never seen the specific claim that it was an "intentional" choice to pick a theme palatable to pagans. Rather, the things I've read simply noted the similarity and speculated that one story was the inspiration for the other. I'd like to see some evidence that a serious researcher has made these claims, because it sounds to me like a straw man. --Dmerrill

Straw man. Yes. That's exactly what it is. I'm sure some baroque humanist suggested it (perhaps Athanasius Kircher?), but - like most of the Germanic 'etymology' and nomenclature on Wikipedia - it is a very long way from that to any modern scholar suggesting it. --MichaelTinkler

The only way I've ever seen it (in scholarly texts) is as one of many resurrection cults that existed in the Roman Empire at the time of the rise of Christianity. The other biggie is Mithraism. Never seen anything to suggest intent though. In fact, the only example of this I know of is in Gergory's letter to Augustine of Canterbury, where he says to bless the holy places of the pagans and turn them to places of Christian worship -- and even that is not worded that blatantly! JHK

I wasn't trying to set up a straw man, but this article may not be the place for the above rebuttal. At the bottom of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ page, there are (at the moment) links to two external articles. The article at the religious tolerance website includes this paragraph (regarding the similarities between Christian and pagan resurrection stories):

To many liberal Christians, the question is worth studying. Many Pagan religious belief systems permeated the Mediterranean region in the 1st century CE. There were various male heroes within Egyptian, Greek, Roman and other Pagan pantheons of Gods, whose role was to be saviors to humanity -- much like Jesus. In order to compete with those religions, Christianity would have had to describe Jesus in terms that matched or surpassed the Pagan legends. The authors of the gospels may well have picked up themes from other sources and added them to their writings in order to make Christianity more credible to a Pagan world. By isolating and removing such foreign material, we might be able to get a clearer picture of what Jesus taught and how he lived.

So the claim is there that the stories were deliberately brought in to Christianity so it could "compete with those religions." I had a response simmering for a while and it came out here; perhaps it belongs on the Resurrection of Jesus Christ instead, since that's where the reference to the claim is. I'll let someone else decide whether the religious tolerance article is written by a "serious researcher" or not. --Wesley

---

I'm not sure that the proof presented here is particularly worthy of being in this article. As far as I can tell, those three similarities apply to Jesus Christ, Osiris and essentially every life-death-rebirth deity.

1. Both die and are resurrected
   1. Eternal life is a possibility in essentially every religion, most of which include some sort of reference to the possibility of life after death. This point does have some merit, since it applies to Jesus and Osiris and not particularly you or I.
2. Both are symbols of everlasting life
   1. This reiterates the same point as #1, essentially
3. Both are symbolically and literally the way to Heaven (Amenti).
   1. It would be pointless to have a heaven (as most religions do) without some method of getting there

One-half of a similarity does not seem worthy of the space it takes up. I'm posting this here in the hopes that someone will fix it. If nobody argues, I will delete it and just make a link to life-death-rebirth deity -- User:Tokerboy

--- Text taken out of the article by User:Tokerboy as described above.

The following similarities have been observed between the story of Osiris and that of Jesus Christ:

1. Both die and are resurrected
2. Both are symbols of everlasting life
3. Both are symbolically and literally the way to Heaven (Amenti).

The reason for the similarities (or whether there in fact even is a reason beyond sheer coincidence) has been speculated upon, but aside from the similarities themselves there is little information to go on. Tokerboy 16:49 Oct 3, 2002 (UTC)

I think the striking similarities should at least be mentioned, The linked site name a number as high as 46 similarities in the lives and teachings of Horus and Jesus [[1]]. -- user:-ramz-

Similarities between Osiris and Christ: there is also 4) the bread and beer/wine - flesh and blood similarity. And 5) I have read elsewhere that Osiris's resurrection occured at the same time as Easter. Can anyone confirm this? I do not know why there is no mention of the similarity to the Christ story on the main page as it is quite noticeable.

[edit] "Legend" of Osiris and Isis

I have moved all text to the similar subsection here, where it would be looked for. No text has been deleted (or edited yet). For the reason why legend is not myth and doesn't apply to Isis and Osiris, see Legend.Wetman 17:30, 22 May 2004 (UTC) Some people poop on Osiris.

[edit] Disambiguation

Shouldn't this page link to a disambiguation and the current content be rerouted to Osiris (god)? --Colonel E 02:10, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Father of Anubis

"..her husband, Set, who was in fact homosexual"

• Anyone have any references for this 'fact'?

Markh 08:02, 2005 September 2 (UTC)

There's corroboration here. JustSomeKid

All the papyrus describes is a "homosexual attack" of Seth on Horus in the attempt to humiliate him through domination, which ultimately backfires (because Seth is tricked into eating salad spiked with Horus' sperm). It does not describe Seth as homosexual per se, but rather, at best, as bisexual. I'd like to see the bit about his male lover god. Got that papyrus handy?

Urhixidur 00:36, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Does this not show a different attitude to sexuality in the Ancient Egyptian culture, rather that the 'fact' that Seth was homosexual? It definately describes a homosexual act, does that prove the stated fact?

Now afterward, (at) evening time, bed was prepared for them, and they both lay down. But during the night, Seth caused his phallus to become stiff and inserted it between Horus's thighs. Then Horus placed his hands between his thighs and received Seth's semen. Horus went to tell his mother Isis: "Help me, Isis, my mother, come and see what Seth has done to me." [2]

Markh 08:33, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Entry Story Style

After first reading, it seems that this significant entry suffers under its own weight. There are three aspects of the entry that I can think of off the top of my head: a) the factual procession of Egyptian beliefs, and historical events that go along with that, ie the Science b) the poetic/numinous qualities of the stories c) the format of a single page telling all of these

How to solve this well is a question that reflects on all of Wikipedia. Personally I came to this page today to read (b). There may be no 'solution', just creative tensions. What I do request is that amidst the Science, there are uninterrupted sections of story.

[edit] Osiris's Name

The article states "The majority of current thinking is that the Egyptian name is pronounced aser where the a is the letter ayin (i.e. a short 'a' pronounced from the back of the throat as if swallowing)."

I would like some sources on that please. The name is transliterated as wsjr, that's as much as any of my sources state, and I believe that's as much as the article should state. However I'd be very interested to find out the logic behind that theory, and maybe give it a benefit of the doubt - but in any case the article should say, so-and-so believes that it is thus; I certainly see absolutely no support for it to be accepted by a majority.Flyboy Will 09:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought that the name of the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (near Orion), is a Latinised form of Osiris?... Fig 13:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 166.70.243.229's additions

I have some disquiet over 166.70.243.229's additions. Many of them look partly reliable but together they look like someone constructing a theory or presenting a POV by selectively referring to sources. It looks too clean - "just so" - rather than it was x and sometimes y but othertimes it was z. --Victim of signature fascism 01:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've now rectified much of this. --Victim of signature fascism 01:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] God of the dead, not God of death

I think it should be noted that the phrases "God of the dead" and "God of death" are so vastly different that it gives one pause to wonder how or why one would confuse the two. Osiris was also referred to as "king of the living" as was Horus. If people deny that Osiris was a savior and venerated as judge of the dead, I can see where ignoring this would be a temptation for many, but it can only go so far without becoming a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of God of the dead/afterlife/eternity.

Osiris can be compared to the Hindi creation myth with the tree of wisdom, which in itself is comparable to the tree of life / tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Abraimic texts. Osiris would be a rollup of the two trees in Abraimic texts; ie. one can eat of the "forbidden fruit" (which is curiously undefined in all texts) and still attain everlasting life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.218.238 (talk) 05:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

For our edification, here is an entry from the 2003 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, borrowed from sources on the internet. It makes it clear what I mean here, and some of these points must be included in our initial introduction, which should tell a complete idea of who he was, not the details.

By about 2400 BC, however, Osiris clearly played a double role: he was both a god of fertility and the embodiment of the dead and resurrected king. This dual role was in turn combined with the Egyptian concept of divine kingship: the king at death became Osiris, god of the underworld and the dead king's son, the living king, was identified with Horus, a god of the sky. Osiris and Horus were thus father and son. The goddess Isis was the mother of the king and was thus the mother of Horus and consort of Osiris.... Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000BC onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death.... This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the nextworld and through one's descendants on Earth.

We are talking about a very powerful concept of death and rebirth in the evolution of civilization, which is key to understanding how religion evolved from here. 166.70.243.229 19:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sep or Centipede

On a separate issue, it has been requested before, and I'll reiterate that request: What is the source or sources for conflating Osiris with Centipede or Sep? This seems quite unconventional, and is not identified as such anywhere else that I have found, even on places that list his other forms. 166.70.243.229 20:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Still waiting patiently for this explanation. I think it should be taken down if the author cannot make their case. Either way, it looks like their own guess, even the symbol, and doesn't need to confuse a basic encyclopedia entry on Osiris because he had many more forms than this. 166.70.243.229 19:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Osiris in popular culture

I didn't think that the lenghty description of the band, Osiris, belonged in the pop culture section, so I created a band page and moved the bio over to it. It probably needs cleaned up a bit to meet Wikipedia's standards.

Is it a good idea to have a list, in theory inexhaustible, of popular references to Osiris, having little or nothing to do with the Osiris of the article? ie a popularMyspace member is called Osiris, erm, the bass player of Random Rock Band was occasionally known as Osiris, a horse which won a race one time was called O..... etc.Hakluyt bean 16:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

o.k, take your point, if there is no obvious and direct link to the ancient Egyptian God, the subject of the article, then it should go. I will begin today and if anybody wants to revert then please discuss on this talk page first.GoldenMeadows 07:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

As currently written, the article seems to contradict itself in regards to the meaning and origin of the name Osiris; particularly the statement that "The origin of Osiris's name is a mystery, which forms an obstacle to knowing the pronunciation of its hieroglyphic form". Lucky number 49 17:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

A contradition would be to state that we know how to pronounce the name, and also that we don't have any idea how to. I see no contradition in a simple statement of lack of certain knowledge. Thus, I've removed the tag. Please try to explain yourself better. SBHarris 18:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Osirian sacrament

Can anyone justify this section including the supposed beliefs of the Nilitic peoples re: cannibalism and also the idea that there was anything like an Osirian sacrement?Apepch7 15:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The real story of Isis & Osiris

Besides the tomb underneath the Sphinx.

Skip that for a moment, there is so much archeological evidence about Isis & Osiris throughout all of Egypt. But the story of Zeti I & the book of the dead are not valid, I am convinced every hieroglyph from the tomb of Osiris underneath the Sphinx are describing the real story. People just have to figure out the real story of Isis & Osiris for themselves, it's so easy to find. You don't have to go all the way into Osiris's tomb to learn more about him, above the ground is so much archeological evidence.

You just have to know where to look and where not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phalanxpursos (talk • contribs) 00:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of Osiris in popular culture section

I noticed a recent edit while watching recent changes in Egyptology edits and decided to find out what should go in such sections, following the discussion above. WP:POPCULTURE says 'in a nutshell' "In popular culture" sections should be carefully maintained and contain sourced examples demonstrating a subject's cultural significance." In more detail, it says "Some degree of selectivity should always be used when adding items, and passing references to the article subject are usually not good examples. "In popular culture" lists should contain verifiable facts of genuine interest to a broad audience of readers.

Although some information can be verified from primary sources, this does not demonstrate whether such information has been discussed in independent secondary sources. If a cultural reference is genuinely significant it should be possible to find a secondary reliable source to attribute that judgment. Quoting a respected expert as attesting to the importance of a subject as a cultural influence is encouraged."

The current section simply didn't get anywhere near meeting the guidelines, so I've removed it. I've nothing against a decent section with references to independent secondary sources, and if someone wants to start one, go ahead. Doug Weller (talk) 08:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that was an essay, not guidelines, but I think gives good guidance and should be followed if it is restored. Doug Weller (talk) 09:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)