Talk:Moirae

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Time Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Time, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Time on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this notice, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	Greece Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece, an attempt to expand, improve and standardize the content and structure of articles related to Greece.
If you would like to participate, you can improve Moirae, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (comments)
???	This article has not yet been prioritized.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked

	Mythology Portal This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology . This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

"Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos appear in the Stephen King novel Insomnia. In this, they are personified as dimimutive, bald, male doctors. Aside from their direct role in this story, King also describes their place in the mythology of the Dark Tower series. " Of course everything appears in a Stephen King novel, doesn't it? or in a handheld computer game or the name of a garage band somewhere. A quote from the novel would strengthen this very slender connection, and show how King uses the Moirae. Does it genuinely shed light on the Moirae that their names are applied to little bald doctors? Wetman 09:18, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In this case the three are named and are principal players in the plot. There is nothing slender about the connection:

We don't have names, not the way Short-Timers (that is, ordinary mortals bound to the material world) do - but you may call us after the fates in the story this man (Ralph, the main character, having already conjectured their existence to his friend Lois) has already told you. That these names originally belonged to women means little to us , since we are creatures with no sexual dimension. I will be Clotho, although I spin no thread, and my colleague and old friend will be Lachesis, although he shakes no rods and has never thrown the coins. Chapter Seventeen, part 3, pg 438 (Hodder and Staughton paperback).

Seems like that could be a copyvio though. mat_x 10:25, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Apropos, if you think a mention of popular fiction in the article would lower its tone, then I can just add the paragraph to Insomnia, with a link to Moirae. mat_x

If you have nothing further to add to this discussion, I'll return my text to the article until we debate it further. Best, mat_x 21:11, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Quoting a brief passage in order to show how the author works, or to illuminate something beyond the passage itself, is not a copyright violation. Every high school graduate should know this. So, if the Stephen King reference throws light upon the Moirae, or shows how they are interpreted by the mainstream of modern culture— or even by a cult group— or demonstrates anything at all beyond King's fiction, give the reader a brief excursus. But the King reference just by itself, is what the Romans call inane. 21:38, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)Wetman

Thanks for the prompt reply. Problem one is that not every country has a system isomorphic to what you refer to as high school, and so it is wrong to assume all have been through this system. More importantly (so, problem two), I don't think a high school student's paper on X would be distributed under the GNU Free Documentation License, as Wikipedia is. See Copyrights. My comment about copyright violation was in the hope you have more experience in these matters than I. With the above in mind, quoting the passage I gave may still be OK, but it doesn't seem like an issue for instant dismissal.

My original thought about the edit was that it might be interesting to show a contemporary use / anthropomorphization of the idea of the Fates. If you feel such a modification should be accompanied by the elaboration you describe, then I respect your view and I'll leave Moirae as it is. mat_x 09:15, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Why the selfe linking? 2 Hecate, Triple Goddess, and the Moirae 3 Roman version? 4 About Ragnarök Online's Manhwa 5 Latinization: rename Fates or Three Fates? 6 Kers 7 Page move request 8 Which version of Homer?

[edit] Why the selfe linking?

It seams that lower down in the artical(sp?) the link Moirae goes right back to the top of the page, that seems relly stupid. Is there a reason for this?Blue loonie 01:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hecate, Triple Goddess, and the Moirae

This article says, "Hecate, the crone aspect of the Triple Goddess was the spinner." I haven't found any evidence to support this, and it seems very unlikely to me (but I have no background in Greek mythology). Is it true, or should that text be deleted? JameySharp 04:39, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thre are many sets of Three, and the crone aspect of the Great Goddess is not one of the Fates, as your hunch rightly suggested. --Wetman 04:48, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Roman version?

I was just wondering if I was correct in assuming that the triumverate of female entities that control fate was exported from the Hellenic context to the Roman (like so many other aspects of their mythology). I'm not particularly well versed in either, but I do recall "The Furies" later known as "The Kindly Ones" sharing many similar characteristics. They are portrayed as being more involved in shaping events and exacting revenge, but the similarities struck me.

If anyone has info on what if any connection there is between the Greek Moirae and Roman Furies it would be a much appreciated.

Mention of the Fates in Latin literature would make a start here. --Wetman 00:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, you're thinking of the Erinyes. Opoudjis 05:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Ragnarök Online's Manhwa

The ones depicted in Ragnarok Online's Manhwa are not the Moirae but the Nornir: Skurd, Verdandi and Urd (the sames which are the base for Skuld, Belldandy and Urd form Aa Megamisma)

I have made a new article Fates in market-driven culture that will accomodate all such usages. --Wetman 05:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I brought that article back into this main article because I didn't think it justified its own little article - could we discuss?--TurabianNights 16:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Though in all honesty, do we really need a laundry list of every time the fates are mentioned in a comic or video game? Couldn't we just pick a few notable examples?--TurabianNights 03:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The connection is less than tenuous. This kind of pre-adolescent cruft builds up like dust mice under the sofa.--Wetman 22:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latinization: rename Fates or Three Fates?

Μοίραι would traditionally be Latinized as Moerae, and in the now more common (and allegedly more accurate) system Moirai. Moirae, though, seems totally inappropriate. It really should be one or the other (and I'd vote for the former). --Iustinus 00:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me think about that. Moera would be almost unrecognizable to most people, and so should be avoided. What would you think of a move to Fates, which now redirects here? Septentrionalis 00:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh God, please yes.--TurabianNights 15:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Are we ever going to make this move? Can we vote on it soonish?--TurabianNights 03:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC);;;Wouldn't Three Fates be even better? --Wetman 22:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kers

"Their many siblings included 'The Keres' who were a group of female death spirits." Perfectly silly "relationship", and a misunderstanding of Ker to boot. Jane Ellen Harrison, Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion would straighten out these misperceptions. --Wetman 22:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move request

I suggest that this article be moved to Moirae. The article name could then be used as an overarching article covering both Moirae, Parcae, Laimas, Norns and other fate goddesses.--Berig 09:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think moving all those to "The Fates" would be a better idea. That's a more inclusive term. Then redirect everything there.Andy Christ (talk) 20:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Which version of Homer?

This article cites various lines in the Iliad and Odyssey. However, there is no reference to a translation of these works in the References section. All translations have different breaking of line numbers (e.g. the Odyssey quote in Fagles' translation is lines 232-233). The translation should be cited. --Fbv65edel — t — c // 18:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)