Talk:Mobutu Sese Seko
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Mobutu Sese Seko was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: September 21, 2007 |
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[edit] Which name is it anyway
Since we now have two versions of his name in the article and a third in an external link that I just inserted, I thought I'd do the Google test to see which is most popular, I have not done any changes to the article though, since I find them all quite probable. I think a source directlz discussing the issue is needed. Here goes:
Using Google, no filters, with/without/ "duplicates" (as detected by Google)/Google groups with/Google groups without|same but not using "-wikipedia":
- "Mobutu Sese Seko Koko Ngbendu Wa Za Banga" -wikipedia: 107/29/3/2|366/35/3/2: This is the form used by Britannica.com.
- "Mobutu Sese Seko Nkuku wa za Banga" -wikipedia: 76/19/0/0|96/24/0/0: This is the form we currently use, almost looks like its introduced by us. Google suggest that the correct spelling is the one in the next.
- "Mobutu Sese Seko Kuku Ngbendu wa za Banga" -wikipedia: 456/145/32/18|599/124/32/18: As you can see, this is the Google winner. It is also the form used by MSN Encarta and the last weblink that I added. My favourite. --Dittaeva 22:20, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if it's even worth mentioning but this article got mentioned by the Zaire Businessman Scam email. One of the older scams, and certainly one of the dumbest. Thought you might find that amusing here.
[edit] United States
I think it would be important to add a few words about the fact that he was backed by the United States.65.95.83.10
I added something at the end of the kleptocracy paragraph because that's where I thought it fit the most. Maybe a new paragragh could be written though, about Mobutu's importance to the West in Africa during the Cold War. Red Star
This is Red Star again, somebody added a paragraph entitled "US government likes him", which of course sounded quite silly. I moved some of the info to Military coup, while adding the bit about the Belgians, but I'd like to see the source for his friendship with Pat Robertson. It could be added to Robertson's article too. In the meantime I put the sentence in the Early Years, I don't see where else it could belong. Red Star September 10 2005
[edit] Requested move
The reasons for move copied from the entry on the WP:RM page:
--Francis Schonken 08:38, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
- Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
- Support move, see below for reasons. --Francis Schonken 08:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
- Support. If the French wiki doesn't use acutes, then why does the English wiki. – AxSkov (☏) 09:39, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
- Support. The books i own use Mobutu Sese Seko. --POY 15:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 00:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
- Add any additional comments
Appears that in French it is written thus: fr:Mobutu Sese Seko (even if that would be the way to approach it, which it is not currently). That English wikipedia is incorrect follows even more from Google search which turns out 256 instances of the Sésé variant; 171000 for the Sese variant (for English pages, excluding wikipedia from the search). Another example of wikipedians trying to "make" reality, instead of recording it. --Francis Schonken 08:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Why is the French usage relevant? Sese Seko is obviously not a French name. There's nothing wrong with the anglicized form. Even the Lingala dictionary (Kawata Ashem Tem), with fancy academic spelling, uses the spelling Mobutu Sese Seko. ---moyogo 08:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The legacy part of this article is biased, because it only gives the positive side and not the negative side like how many people were killed, how tyranical his rule was and other stuff.
[edit] Too little information
"The rumble in the jungle" legendary Ali vs Foreman fight is missing (which he used to clean his image), plus more information on his crimes, all of that is missing from this very short page.
[edit] Overthrow
I am not sure the argument that Tutsis were opposed to Mobutu due to his support of Rwandan extremists, is valid. Tusis were angered with him because he had let the National Conference withdraw collectively the citizenship of all Tutsi Congolese people, on charges of double-citizenship (which was - and still is - illegal in the country) with Rwanda. They were fighting for their citizenship rights. And the very opportunistic Kagame used their grievances as an excuse to invade the country, and attempt - he failed miserably by the way - to deal with the Hutu extremists and interahamwe. Hence the First Congo War. Themalau 22:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Military position pre-1965
Right now the article says, "Following the granting of independence on June 30, 1960, he joined the new government as Secretary of the State for Defense. The new government was a coalition between Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba and President Joseph Kasavubu, both of whom soon started to struggle for overall power - both attempting to dismiss the other from government with Kasavubu ultimately proving successful. On September 14, 1960 a coup d'état overthrew Lumumba in support of the President. Colonel Mobutu was a key figure in the coup and was significantly rewarded for this work."
Mobutu was definitely a colonel at the time, but was his formal position "secretary of state for defense"? Other sources I have read say that he was chief of staff of the army. In the francophone world, "Secrétaire d'État" is a sub-ministerial position. The Secrétaire d'État does not participate in general cabinet discussions unless his portfolio is being discussed.
Also, the follow passage in the article makes no sense: In 1965, now Lieutenant-General Mobutu seized power from President Kasavubu, following another power struggle between Kasavubu and his prime minister Moise Tshombe. The CIA and the Belgians were actively working in the country to support Mobutu and get rid of Lumumba (whom they regarded as too pro-Soviet) because they felt Mobutu would be a better ally in the Cold War."
By the time of the 1965, Lumumba had been dead for 4 years. There was no need to be rid of him in 1965; they had done that in 1961." I will change that. -- Poldy Bloom 20:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Follow-up
As noted above, there is some disagreement in the reference literature over which office Mobutu held. MSN Encarta, "Mobutu Sese Seko," section: "Early Life and Career" describes him as chief of staff of the army, as does the Library of Congress, Federal Research Division, A Country Study: Zaire (Former), Chapter 1, "Historical Setting," section: "The Mutiny of the Force Publique," by René Lemarchand, and Guy Arnold, Africa: A Modern History (London: Atlantic Books, 2005), p. 23. Encyclopedia Britannica, on-line edition, "Mobutu Sese Seko," states he was secretary of state for national defense.
I am going to change the Wikipedia article to reflect the Library of Congress guide. -- Poldy Bloom 05:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no explanation of how he went from sergeant to colonel. How he got to be colonel would be interesting as the article states he left the army as sergeant. Can anyone help?
After Lumumba "Africanized" the officer corps following the riots early in his rule, he promoted each officer by one rank. I don't know if colonel follows sergeant, but that's one possible explanation. Josh 00:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Translation of his name to English
I read a book about Kongo and Mobutu and the translation of his name was given as "The cock that leaves no hen unruffled", I can't belive this but there is simply always a chance that something is wrong! Ghislain C. Kabwit (1979). "Zaire: The Roots of the Continuing Crisis". The Journal of Modern African Studies 17 (3): 381-407. states the same.
Gertrude D. M. Mianda (1995). "Dans l'ombre de la "démocratie" au Zaïre: La remise en question de l'émancipation Mobutiste de la femme". Canadian Journal of African Studies / Revue Canadienne des Études Africaines 29 (1): 51-78. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.76.234.75 (talk • contribs) 23 October 2006.
- That's the Tshiluba translation of his name. The Ngbandi translation is the one stated in the article. Both are correct. Josh 00:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
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- It seems to me that "The cock who leaves no hen untouched", is the literal meaning (kuku does mean rooster in the bantu languages I know) whereas the metaphorical meaning is "The all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, will go from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake". The latter seems a bit extravagant, but then, Mobutu was extravagant. --Ezeu 00:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I cant see any translation of his name in the current (April 2008) version of the article. Perhaps that is just as well. I found another alternative translation:[1]
- "The cock who goes from hen to hen knowing no fatigue"
- --Stor stark7 Speak 20:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Vandalism
I don't know how to revert a page, so someone else will have to do so, but someone called 62.253.192.92 has twice put in nonsense words. Lindsay H. 14:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- I have reverted the vandalism. See Help:Reverting for how to do it. --Ezeu 16:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Seventeen children
Source: In the Footsteps of Mr. Kurtz. I'll check the page number next time I'm at the library.
[edit] President For Life
- How was he "unsuccessful" in annointing himself "President For Life?"
- I know that the claim is footnoted, but I haven't been able to find anything online verifying it.
- Can someone post an excerpt from the book where the event is described? Ruthfulbarbarity 15:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Sure thing.
From The Rise and Decline of the Zairian State, p. 211: "It is widely believed that Mobutu's attempt to have himself named Life President in 1972 foundered when former Political Bureau member Kasongo Nyembo, a major chief of the Shaba Luba, remarked that "not even the Emperor of the Luba serves for life."
Josh 01:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add that while Mobutu was in essence a de facto Life President, he was never a de jure one, though he would have liked to be one.Josh 01:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody know if Mobutu's famous leopardskin toque was actually derived from some sort of traditional African headgear, or was it merely an Africanized version of a British Army "garryowen", which it resembles in shape. -Ken Burch
Dunno, but the leopard was his personal symbol, mainly due to the (undoubtedly fictitious) encounter with a leopard he had as a child. Josh 15:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Name translation
How does his eight-word self-given name possibly translate to forty-one words in English? I suppose we could reduce it (to "Allpowerfulwarrior hisendurance dominatingwillofvictory winscontinually destroyseverything arisesfromblood ashes hisenemies likethesun nightconquerer", which would be a super-basic version of "The all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, goes from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake and arising from the blood and ashes of his enemies like the Sun which conquers the night". I'm rather doubtful that whatever African language this is would have terms as so detailed to approximate ideas such as "arises-from-blood", but I don't know. At any rise, I can't imagine how this could be cut down to less than ten words. Nyttend 21:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
- Where did that name come from anyway? Because the reference gives a much shorter (plausible) name in french and casts some doubt on the english translation. The article should reflect that he invented/created/interpreted the translation into english. Are we doing some puffery by proxy? My native is Portuguese and like i know that translations into english usually need extra words to convey the proper meaning...but 5 times more?Galf 20:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- The literal translation is easy, it means "The rooster who leaves no hen untouched". It is the metaphorical meaning that is tricky. --Ezeu 20:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- So what's tricky about that one? et pluribus unnum means the exact same thing....the most powerful around, the supreme kahuna. To go from there to a tale of blood and conquest sounds to me more like someone got a little carried away trying to give the (supposedly) ignorant westerners something to print. Notice how the French translation in the source given is....shorter. So my proposal is we give the direct translation, preferably with a good source and then we add that he claimed that his name meant the bloody tale of conquest. It's balanced and the reader can decide if african names have deeper meanings (5 times deeper) or if he just enjoyed a little self praise.Galf 21:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- The literal translation is easy, it means "The rooster who leaves no hen untouched". It is the metaphorical meaning that is tricky. --Ezeu 20:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The Time had an article in 1972 about zairization (zairianization) of names [2]:
- The President, as it happens, had that thought in mind. Last week he announced that he was considering renaming himself Sese-Seko-Kuku-Ngbendu-Wa-Za-Banga Mobutu, which means, roughly, the hot-blooded warrior and man of the soil who cannot know defeat because of his endurance and his inflexible will to win and who belongs to all Zaïre. Later, though, he mercifully decided to make it simply Mobutu-Sese-Seko.
(emphasis added by me) --moyogo 22:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Seriously though, the translation currently given in the article is a joke. ---moyogo 23:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
A recent article from the Daily Nation [3] says:
- Ngbendu Wazabanga. Literally translated as "hot pepper", "green," and "it stings". Kuku ngbendu wazabanga is an Ngbandi proverb whose translation could mean: "Even if it is not ripe, hot pepper stings"
So whatever else roughly translated is very figurative. The long translations try to state every possible meaning. --moyogo 23:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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- My knowledge of African languages lags seriously...that is to say that I speak only Portuguese. However, my previous point still stands, was this just a translation for "ignorant westerners"? I'd like to point out that even the supposed proper name for the country, Zaire is in fact a Portuguese corruption of another African word, Nzere (river). And my question again, is there any substantiation to the name given in english other than the one given by Mobuto himself?
- On the river name, I could translate Nzadi o Nzere (the Congo) as "river of rivers", "river that swallows other rivers" (as given in the zaire article) or "most powerful and great river that swallows all other tiny rivers that are no match to it and that feeds all the land of Congo around it" but that would just be creativity on my part, not translation. It sounds better though :-) BTW, the proverb: "Malaguetas verdes também picam", in Portuguese just needs one more word Galf 23:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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Most of my sources (I have several) say Mobutu's name translates to "the all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, will go from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake" (in Ngbandi) and "invincible warrior: cock who leaves no chick intact" or "rooster who covers all the hens/chickens" (in Tshiluba).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MinnesotanConfederacy (talk • contribs) 16:49, 16 April 2007) (UTC).
- Perhaps we should add a foonote with the different translations and the references. --Ezeu 17:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I've started one, which I assume will become amusingly lengthy. ;) - BanyanTree 09:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- The translation given by Young and Turner in The Rise and Decline of the Zairian State (p. 153) is "all-conquering warrior who triumphs over all obstacles"; another common translation, incorrect by their account, is "cock who leaves no hen intact." Martin Meredith's The Fate of Africa, Blaine Harden's Africa: Dispatches from a Fragile Continent, and David Lamb's The Africans all list "the all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, will go from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake" as the translation. Josh 02:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- You appear to have more credible sources than anyone else. Why don't you rewrite the footnote to emphasize the most common name? The conflicting translations are not consequential enough for a section in the main body, imo, but interesting enough for a long footnote. - BanyanTree 05:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- The translation given by Young and Turner in The Rise and Decline of the Zairian State (p. 153) is "all-conquering warrior who triumphs over all obstacles"; another common translation, incorrect by their account, is "cock who leaves no hen intact." Martin Meredith's The Fate of Africa, Blaine Harden's Africa: Dispatches from a Fragile Continent, and David Lamb's The Africans all list "the all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, will go from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake" as the translation. Josh 02:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've started one, which I assume will become amusingly lengthy. ;) - BanyanTree 09:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Early years" authenticity...
The authenticity in the last paragraph of this section (particularly the last few sentences of said paragraph) is dubious.
To say factually that the CIA and Belgium favored Mobutu because they thought he would be a better ally in the Cold War is quite a definite statement to try and make. If anything, this is a sweeping assertion. There need to be more neutrality in that last paragraph.
Doesn't anyone recognize the fact that Belgium supported Mobutu overthrowing Lumumba? So did the CIA? The CIA is notorious for disrupting foreign governments and sparking coups. So therefore, one cannot say for sure without facts that either view is true.
Mobutu was likely supported for multifarious reasons, for example, because he was a better ally in the Cold War, but perhaps also because Belgium and the CIA knew they could more easily use and manipulate a more corrupt man.
Does my discussion sound one-sided?
Well so does the story.
Let's see if we can add some neutrality to it. Mobutu obviously was not a saint. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.93.12 (talk) 11:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC).
No one said he was a saint. But they DID support him because he was known to be West-leaning and anticommunist. And it should be recalled that Mobutu at the time was not corrupt, and was even pro-democracy. The CIA itself did not overthrow Lumumba, Mobutu did on his own, though he did not do so until he was assured he would enjoy U.S. backing if he did so. Josh 17:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Good article nomination on hold
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of September 13, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
- 1. Well written?:
For the most part, the article conforms to the Manual of Style. There are, however, a few issues to be dealt with. Just FYI: According to the MOS, there is no preference for single or double spaces after a full stop because it doesn't show up anywhere but the edit window. There are several facts that are placed as single-sentence paragraphs. These should be integrated into existing paragraphs. Examples are in: One-man rule and Family. The last paragraph of Legacy is very poorly written. It needs to be rewritten to include a basic definition of what the email scams are first. We need a definition before its context and connection to the subject at hand can be further intimated. - 2. Factually accurate?: Mostly well-sourced, but I have added fact tags to claims needing citations. Remember to directly cite anything like to be challenged (Example: assertions of the opinions of groups or individuals) and always quotations. Just to clarify my purpose and reasoning in adding those tags, I'll include the words of a better reviewer than I, "the paragraphs in question are packed with information and it's difficult to know what's covered by the single end-ref. A cite at the end of the paragraph is really the bare minimum required." Adding fact tags isn't meant to suggest that the items are untrue, but that readers need reminding that they supported by reliable sources, usually because of their potentially contentious nature. An example of where the article does do this is the second sentence of the one-man rule section. But on a more concrete issue, there are multiple sections, several of them large, without a single citation. This lack of citations is borderline on whether to quick-fail the article, but if you can comprehensively cite the following sections within seven days, the article may be passable.
- Military coup and consolidation of power
- Relations with the Soviet Union
- Coalition government
- Overthrow
- Death
- Legacy
- The last paragraph of Relations with the People's Republic of China
- 3. Broad in coverage?: Though mostly comprehensive when it comes to the core biographical info, the article needs expansion in a few places. The Death section either needs to be expanded or placed chronologically as part of another section. The arts and literature section is pretty scant. Not saying you didn't do your job, but it looks odd. A good option might be to integrate the most notable ones as part of the introduction, in order to even more clearly state the subject's notability (example: ...and whose rule was the subject of such notable works of fiction as...").
- 4. Neutral point of view?:
The article does a pretty fair job of staying neutral, especially considering the subject matter. Refraining from using sensationalist language when it comes to violence he fomented helps. Citations for sections such as Legacy will help here though. - 5. Article stability? Article is not the subject of any major on-going conflicts.
- 6. Images?: Properly sourced and utilized.
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky Talk 23:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Well then please fail this article without further notice
I say let's "fail without further notice", i.e. drop that GA nomination and revert the strange mutilations wrought down upon us by GA. The article is a mess now with citation needed tags spread all over, even though the relevant citations are, in fact, given at the end of each paragraph. This is no incentive to improvement. — mark ✎ 11:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Note that I object to the {{fact}}-tags primarily. Most other suggestions given above are valuable. It is just that I do not see the added value of the GA operation. — mark ✎ 12:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is not the place to pick a battle over Wiki policy. Improving the article status is a goal for all articles. I'll fix it up this weekend. The article was, to a degree, a mess to begin with in certain places. I just didnt notice how bad. Perspicacite 12:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "good article" nomination failed
Per the failure to complete the above improvements within a week's time. Thank you for your work so far, and if you have an objection to the result you may take it GA review. VanTucky Talk 18:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Congrats
Who's been editing this slice of fried gold -- congratulations to the editor (s) who made this article such an enjoyable read. Michael talk 10:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] no billions?
The following sentence, in particular the parenthetical, seems overly sweeping. "He worked hard on little but to increase his personal fortune, which in 1984 was estimated to amount to US$5 billion,[16][17] most of it in Swiss banks (however, many now suspect he was never a billionaire at all[18])."
To say that "MANY now suspect he was never a billionaire" from an 11 year old cnn article is perhaps not a factual representation of that article. From the article, it seems only to be a Swiss bank which believes this (Swiss banks, you may remember, in the past have attempted to hide the assets of various people). 12.206.222.20 (talk) 18:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] pronunciation
Where does his "own" pronunciation come from? It's neither Lingala nor French. kwami (talk) 22:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- That unverified phonetical transcription was introduced by an anonymous user [4] and hasn't been referenced since. --moyogo (talk) 09:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
