Talk:Marseille

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Contents 1 Name 2 Massilia 3 White Space 4 New Infobox Template proposition 5 Temperature Oddity 6 a visit to marseille 7 crime 8 Demographics 9 Images 10 Economy 11 Pytheas 12 Citoyen Kane 13 Modifications to caption 14 User:angr 15 Thumb sizes 16 History, after Rome 17 Twin Towns 18 Tourist attractions and sites 19 History of Marseille

[edit] Name

(The English spelling "Marseilles" is falling out of usage.) The French person who wrote this is misinformed. Just google 'Marseilles'. So French! Imagine an American telling a Frenchman that the right spelling of Versailles was "Versaille." Many French spell New York "New-York." We never correct them, because it absolutely doesn't matter. Wetman 20:58, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'd say they were right. The spelling with an -s was always a bit bizarre and etymologically unjustified, and I have never heard anyone actually say Marseilles (the -s would be pronounced in English). Chameleon 13:33, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

So the "s" in Lyons would be pronounced too, then? On a cheerier note, I was just coming back to suggest to more knowledgeable Wikipedians that this stubby entry could be expanded by referring to "What links here." Many suggestions there. Wetman 07:41, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd be much obliged to Wetman if he could stop making country-wide generalizations ("so French!" etc.). David.Monniaux 19:32, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Particularly since I have also written (and had it reverted) that "Marseilles" is falling out of usage...and I'm English, not French. For the record, I haven't seen the terminal "-s" in publications for many years, except in very old travel guides. There isn't a terminal "-s" in Lyon either, so I'm not sure what all that is about. Ah well, Americans always did hold to old-fashioned spellings longer than anyone else (yes, that was indeed another sweeping generalisation ;)) -- Necrothesp 01:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cours Julien I thought it would be nice to add the "cours julien" on the "sights" section. Unfortunely I haven´t got a photo to upload.. If anyone does...

I will be visiting Marseille in early April 2006, so I'll try to update this page especially in terms of photos when I get back. What is the Cours Julien? I'll try to get a photo of it if I can. User:Adrian.Denegar

FWIW, I have heard the pronunciation of roughly mah-sales for Marseilles, but only in UK English. I can't say if that's considered an acceptable alternative in the UK, but it sounds very uneducated from a North American perspective. However, UK English is often much more extreme in Anglicizing foreign names and words than North American English -- e.g. pasta with the first vowel as in past, pastel with stress on first syllable, etc.

But WRT spelling, Google (English-only) returns 21 million for Marseille and 6 million for Marseilles. (Removing language preference changes it to 63 million vs. 6.5 million.) So the current article title Marseille is quite appropriate. There is a general but very gradual trend in English to reduce arbitrary alterations to foreign names (e.g., writing the French king Lewis XV or Frankfort for Frankfurt-am-Main.) Tkinias 14:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not just an English thing. There's a general trend in this globalizing world for people just to take verbatim the names that other people give themselves, in their own language, wherever practical. Fwiw, I don't mind us retaining English *names* for foreign places (Florence rather than Fiorenza, Cologne rather than Köln...), but broken English spellings that are just historical accidents...no thanks. Ok, I live in Lyon[s] so I'm even more biased, but think that Wikipedia should be aiming to educate, rather than reinforce mistakes. Florence is a logical anglicisation. Cologne is understandable (Köln uses an unknown consonant cluster in English), Marseilles...no justification. Stevage 14:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually searched for this page buy typing in Marseilles (I am English and pronounce this exactly the same as you would 'Marseille'.) So there is at least one English speaker who uses this alternative spelling! :) Jonwood1 17:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It will be Roma next. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This change was noted 80 years ago in Modern English Usage (or maybe later in The King's English). Fowler also noted that the French pronunciation was replacing the English, so I assume the s had commonly been pronounced. It is inconsistent (why not Roma, after all?), but usage is inconsistent. I still spell it with an s, but I'm a way old fart. John FitzGerald 22:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Stevage, what in the world made you think that Florence's italian name was Fiorenza? I don't even see it on Google. It is Firenze, of course. I have noticed other cases where anglosaxons use another spelling of a city's name thinking it's the original, like in Genoa(Italy). Genoa is correct in Ligurian Italian, but not in Toscan Italian, which is the "standard" Italian nowadays. The correct spelling is Genova.--Stormy Ordos 16:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Tkinias, in the UK Marseilles is pronounced 'Mar-say' - a slight anglicisation, but understandable as our vowels differ from those available in French. I have never ever heard anyone say 'Mar-sales' in the UK, or anywhere outside the US, for that matter. I think your comment about British English speakers having a greater tendency to Anglicise is also inaccurate - of course we do anglicise some things, but so do other English speaking communities. To suggest it is less common in the States is wrong, I'd say. I would even suggest that the opposite is true. Incidentally, the Italians pronounce 'pasta' as 'pаsta', not 'pahsta', as it is sometimes heard in the US. I don't think it matters too much how you pronounce things as long as everyone understands what you mean to say, but I thought I'd just clarify this point. Potahto (talk) 10:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right. People in the UK also pronounce Avignon and Arles more or less correctly, but Aix is often pronounced "aches" rather than "ex" :) (The pronunciation of Buoux in the Luberon is far more interesting...) Mathsci (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Massilia

I've piped the redirect for Massilia to Marseille#Ancient. Could I have a hand in adding a Massilia link to any pages about ancient history mentioning Massilia where there is no Massilia link? Neddyseagoon 19:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon

A few days ago, I added a disamb that has been removed. [1] The wiki Massilia redirects to Marseille. However, there is a boat with the same name and the article The Vichy 80, refers to it. Maybe your guys could find a way to have a disamb. Tony 04:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White Space

Is there a way to make it so there isn't a huge white space between the header for the History section and the actual start of the text in the section? I haven't played with Wikipedia enough to know how to do that, and I don't want to use this article as a sandbox.ONUnicorn 16:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

There's always the "preview" button. However, I don't see a "huge white space"? There's an expansion template...if there's too much space around it for your liking, delete one or two of the carriage returns? Stevage 14:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Infobox Template proposition

I'd like to bring your attention to a new - or other - version of the "Large French Cities" infobox presently at use in a few French cities pages. The present version is much too large, partly because it consecrates too much space to information having little importance to French demography and an only distant and indirect relevence to the city itself. Instead I propose to follow a less cumbersome model closer to that used by the New York City article - you can view the new version in the Paris talk page here. Please view and comment. THEPROMENADER 22:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

As a result of some discussion over the past weeks, there is an updated template available for perusal in its 'published ' form (filled with data) here - all comments welcome. -- THEPROMENADER 07:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temperature Oddity

It seems odd that Marsielle's(s') July temperature would average around the 20s considering its location. Is the section on temperatures correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonwood1 (talk • contribs)

It is the average temperature, not the average high temperature. --Bob 18:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a table displaying the averages across the year from weatherbase.

I added the population status in Marseilles which may be very helful in some cases —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.153.43 (talk) 18:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] a visit to marseille

I visited marseille this summer during a tour in southern europe. Unfortunately, i have to say that it is the filthiest city in Europe!!! It's a great pity that a city with such a great history and fantastic old buildings is left totally abandoned! All the streets are full of garbage, there is a terrible smell everywhere, especially near the old port, and even large chains of fast food like mc donalds,haagen dazs etc are also extremely dirty. I don't think that any European traveller will enjoy the stay in Marseille.

--- This comment should be removed or seriously moderated. It is up to european, or any travelers to decide whether they enjoy marseille or not. Broad, generalist statements like this one are not useful in a encycopdic entry. At the moment the city is undergoing a massive urban reconstruction program, leaving many parts of the city looking like a construction site. One of the goals is to change public transportation by building a tramway line, that is currently (oct 2006) still being constructed and is planned to start running in June 2007. Marseille could be undergoing a similar reconstruction phase that Barcelona went through after the olympic games in 1992.

The fact is, Marseille is alive. You may be a kind of homo sapiens used only to orthogonal roads and orthogonal countries, but it is up to every human, every fish and every macdonald's to decide whether he enjoys the second capital of France. --Stormy Ordos 16:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

It's just funny to see that you consider Marseille as the second capital of France, since it is absolutly not the case (not the second largest population, not the the second largest economy, not the second largest cultural area...). Anyway, that's true the city is dirty, but things are changing in a good way. 22 sept 2007

Of course, it is the second most populous commune in France after Paris. Paris has 2,1 million inhabitants where Marseille has around 0,8 million. I'm talking of communes not agglomérations which are bascically taking all the region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Farigoule (talk • contribs) 10:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] crime

This page is sorely lacking a paragraph about crime statistics in a city that has become known as a problem spot for criminal activity in France. Someone should consider digging up relevant statistics that will turn this page into something other than an advertisement by the city's tourism center.

Yes crime is big in Marseille, but unbeknown to most, Cannes has the highest crime rate in France. Whodda thought. --Bob 16:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Racial crime is huge here, most non-moslems are leaving because the new immigrants are not acting civilized. shops are closing very early. and the people are scared. especially the large Jewish population which is being attacked by the north african moslems. so cannes might have a high petty crime rate but Marseille has serious crime problems (attacking Juifs especially (and white French less so) by growing )moslem population. //screamtoasigh//

Is it me that find this commentory racist? Or is it racist ? Could you support your comment by numbers ?

It is, and untrue. The comments such as shops are closing very early. and the people are scared have no place in Wikipedia. Marseille suffers from crime, it's true. But, to my mind, it suffers much more from those absurd ideas and its general bad reputation. But prejudices are deeply rooted in people's mind. --Franchute 07:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

I'd like to remove the sentence : As a result, the ethnic French are a minority. There is not such thing as Ethnic French. There is more difference between people from Provence and people from the north of France than between them and Italians for instance. But as this might lead to a controversy, I'd like some consensus before doing it. --cperroquin

Without any comment, I will replace the existing chapter on Demographics with this one. I add a table to explain the change in population. Cperroquin 15:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

=== Immigrants ===

Marseille has always been a city of immigrants. In 1900, half of the population is originating from elsewhere ([Italy], [Spain], [Greece] or [Near East]...). As France's largest sea port, Marseille experienced a massive demographic growth as a result of the thousands of immigrants arriving during the 20th century. Italians and Greeks around 1900, [Armenians] after 1915 and 1923, [Russians] in 1917, Spanish after 1936, North-African Arabs and Berbers, notably from Algeria, after the First World War and after 1950, Subsahara Africans after 1950, [Pieds-Noirs] after 1962. Today, many Marseillais are descendants of the waves of immigrants.The largest ethnic groups in the city are Italian who make up 37.5%[2] of the population. Other significant communities include North African Arabs and Berbers (25% of the total population), and Armenians (12.5% of the total population [3]). It is estimated that roughly a quarter of the population are from non-foreign ascendancy. Other significant immigrant groups include people of Turkish, Greek, German and Vietnamese origins. Marseille’s 80,000-strong Jewish community is also said to be the third largest in Europe (France has the largest Jewish community in Europe and the fourth largest in the world, after the United States, Israel and Russia))

Why not just translate what's on the french WP page? It seems to strike the right balance, although the comments on remedies to population decline probably belong in the economy section. It also has 1800 where you have 1900: which is correct? You single out the jewish community - the french WP article describes all religious groups. I think taking a positive attitude is best: Marseille as a "cosmopolitan melting pot" because of its unique pre-eminence as one of the main entry points to France from the south. (Should the many people sans papiers be mentioned?) Just a few random thoughts. To avoid offense, I think talking about the country of origin is better than talking about ethnicity; and all religions should be discussed if judaism is to be mentioned. Here is my slightly amplified translation of the french entry:

Because of its pre-eminence as a mediterranean port, Marseille has always been one of the main points of entry into France. This has attracted many settlers and made Marseille into a unique cosmopolitan melting pot. Already at the end of the 18th century about half the population originated from elsewhere. The main group of immigrants came from Italy (mainly from Genoa and Piedmont) as well as from Spain, Greece and the Middle East.

Economic conditions and political unrest in Europe and the rest of the world brought several further waves of immigrants in the 20th century: greeks and italians started arriving already at the end of the 19th century; russians in 1917; armenians in 1915 and 1923; the spanish after 1936; north africans in the inter-war period;sub-saharan africans after 1945; and the pieds-noirs, from the former french colonies in Algeria, in 1962.

Currently over one third of the population of Marseille can trace their roots back to Italy, the most represented country in the city, even beyond France. Marseille also has the largest Corsican and second largest Armenian population in France. After catholicism, the other major religions practised in Marseille are islam (200,000, a quarter of the population), judaism (80,000, making Marseille the third largest urban jewish community in Europe), [protestantism]] (50,000) and buddhism (10,000).

Mathsci 01:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

100% Agree with you. I was trying to do a mix between existing informations and the French Page... For religion, I've got 600 000 catholics, 150 000 à 200 000 muslims, 80 000 Armenians, 80 000 jews, 20 000 protestants, 10 000 orthodoxes et 3 000 bouddhists. This came from http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/article-imprim.php3?id_article=39997 . I kept ethnicity because of his preeminence in English language but I'm in favor of removing it. Your translation of Levantin in Middle East is subject to controversy... I was using Near East that is quite unusual in English but can't find a better translation... Cperroquin 08:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

If the Middle East is too general, you could say "the Levant", which sounds fine in english. Why not incorporate my translation with your more up to date statistics and references? --Mathsci 09:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Because of its pre-eminence as a mediterranean port, Marseille has always been one of the main points of entry into France. This has attracted many immigrants and made Marseille into a unique cosmopolitan melting pot. Already at the end of the 18th century about half the population originated from elsewhere. The main group of immigrants came from Italy (mainly from Genoa and Piedmont) as well as from Spain, Greece and the Levant.

Economic conditions and political unrest in Europe and the rest of the world brought several further waves of immigrants in the 20th century: greeks and italians started arriving already at the end of the 19th century; russians in 1917; armenians in 1915 and 1923; the spanish after 1936; north africans in the inter-war period; sub-saharan africans after 1945; and the pieds-noirs, from the former french colonies in Algeria, in 1962.

Currently over one third of the population of Marseille can trace their roots back to Italy, the most represented country in the city, even beyond France. Marseille also has the largest Corsican and second largest Armenian population in France. The main religions practised in Marseille are Catholicism (600 000) Islam (between 150,000 and 200,000), Armenian Apostolic Church (80,000), Judaism (80,000, making Marseille the third largest urban jewish community in Europe), Protestantism (20,000), Eastern Orthodoxy (10,000) and Buddhism (3,000).^[1]

Et, voilà !, I also moved settlers to immigrants. Cperroquin 17:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor changes: armenians -> Armenian Orthodoxism, Eastern Orthodoxy -> Eastern Orthodoxism, 600 000 -> 600,000; otherwise fine (except for some possible errors I made with upper/lower case). Why not substitute this passage with the editorial comment that it now conforms to the more fully researched french page? --Mathsci 22:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Just FYI, the term in English is Orthodoxy not Orthodoxism. Orthodoxism could be seen as pejorative (like Islam, Islamism...). For Armenians, I moved to Armenian Apostolic Church. The use of Orthodoxy for Armenians is subject to controversy. I'm going to update the main page... Cperroquin 13:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The article is overloaded with images and has huge visual gaps because there are too many images. A gallery would be far more suited to the article; it would still display the excellent photos of the article and allow for greater expansion of an image collection of Marseille. I will put it on my to do list but perhaps instead someone would like to make a gallery and tidy up the format of the article in general?

I have created a gallery to make the page a lot tidier and have added some information, mainly on the economy and population.LordHarris 11:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Ive also wrote a bit and tidied up the history section. LordHarris 13:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I have recently visited Marseille and have expanded most of the sections. I have written a new section on geography, extended the history and the sights section and have edited the sights section by location to make it more readable. I have amended the assessment scale of the article from a start class article to a B class article since it is too comprehensive to be only a start class article. LordHarris 11:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see that there is a number of thumbnails with enforced sizes - both large and small. Since there is a user-configurable option for thumbnail sizes, I believe that thumbnails should generally be included without forced sizes. That way, people with large screens will be able to increase the size, whereas people with small screens (e.g. subnotebooks) can decrease the size. Comments, anyone? --JDrewes 00:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economy

I have three small problems with the economy section: Firstly, while the Port of Marseille is the biggest in France, and possibly he Med, in terms of size, it has fallen from the top spot in terms of goods passing through each year - Barcelona and Genoa having become arguably more important. Even with in France, Le Havre is catching up with Marseille. The city's Dockers and their penchant for la grève (strike) have undermined the ports reliability.

Based on AAPA data, for the total tonnage, Marseille is still the third port in Europe after Rotterdam and Antwerpen. But you're right that on container tonnage is behind Le Havre or Barcelona. For Passenger traffic, the most important one in France (may be Europe) is Calais Check this : http://www.aapa-ports.org/Industry/content.cfm?ItemNumber=900&navItemNumber=5

Secondly, I was always of the impression that Nice and Lyon airports were in fact busier than that of Marseille-Maringane, which has no non-European destinations other than those to the Maghreb and Dakar.- the airport has also just built a new 'Budget' terminal to attract more flights from the likes of Ryanair, hardly the sign of a booming airport.

Thirdly, the translation of Marseille Provence Metropolis is clearly wrong - what would be a better English rendering? Having spent a year there last year, I have to say that the city is not as straightforward as the tourist brochure which we see just now on this page - that's what makes it so exciting and unique, if not exactly beautiful. AlenWatters 21:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pytheas

If anyone happens to be in Marseille could they please take a photo of the statue of Pytheas and put it on this article. Thanks.

Hi, ive got several photos of statues that I took in Marseille, though I dont know what they are though I know where I took them, so I might have a photo if you can tell me where the statue is? LordHarris 23:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to Marseille tonight, where is that statue ? (I guess at the Bourse)--Franchute 07:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citoyen Kane

What are the locals called? (Don't say French. ;)) Trekphiler 01:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

they are called Marseillais and Marseillaises. --Franchute 07:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup, mon ami. Alex Trebek 22:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modifications to caption

Hello, JDrewes. I'm just recopying the message I left on your talk page; I hope you don't mind. Thank you for your new caption. The address of the Petit Nice is 7 rue des Braves in the telephone directory (pages jaunes). In my Gault Millau they just write "corniche JF Kennedy, Anse de Maldorme". When I look at a large scale Plan Guide Blay-Foldex map of Marseille I see that it is indeed on the Corniche which starts considerably before there. I've seen this view from a car, from the 83 bus and from a yacht on the bay. Of course you are absolutely right that what you see directly in the picture is the Petit Nice with the two islands Frioul and Chateau d'If much further away on the horizon (they appear much better if the thumbnail is clicked). I therefore have taken your better caption with a slight addition. If you'd rather, the caption « View of "Petit Nice" on [from] the Corniche with Frioul and Chateau d'If in the background » would be another alternative. (I'm not even sure whether this isn't an aerial picture, it's hard to judge.) I have been working on the Aix-en-Provence page (heat permitting) and added images there, but I think I'm going to get a friend with a digital camera to take some better ones. Do you have any thoughts? --Mathsci 14:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi! When I wrote "Petit Nice", I actually meant the entire peninsula (with the "Petit Nice" establishment on it). AFAIK, the Marseillaise refer to that as little Nice. Of course I think it is perfectly adequate to add the names of the islands in the background. I have a camera and I live in Marseille. If you want pictures of anything in particular (in the general Marseille area, including Aix, but I can't go there every day), just tell me so, I like to take pictures. :-) I also just added a panoramic view on Marseille from Notre Dame de la Garde to the german "Marseille"-page, and I am considering to embed it in the english version - opinions?JDrewes 12:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I chose the picture because of the islands;)

Your picture is very nice, but please could you make it into a clickable thumbnail on the german WP page? It seems a bit large at the moment. It would be nice to add pictures of Marseille from the sea in the bay showing the waterfront, the surrounding hills, pieds-noir buildings, etc. (Have you been out on a yacht?) IMO these are some of the best views of Marseille. Also, if you have photos of the complete 360 degree set of views from Notre Dame de La Garde, they would make an excellent thumbnail series for the gallery. --Mathsci 18:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I chose the "large image" style because it is the only automatically scaling template for images (or isn't it?). Is there a way to scale the image to always be exactly the current viewers screen width? --JDrewes 00:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:angr

For unknown reasons, this editor has expressed his personal point of view on illustrations in this article. Rather than raising his objections here to the inclusion of the poster of the French Connection, illustrating the "films made in Marseille" section, he has tried to make a procedural objection elsewhere on the WP. That was quite incorrect on his part. Now he wants the picture of the recently deceased Marseille-born opera singer Regine Crespin removed. This is an autographed photo from a blog; here he is pushing a copyright issue. Please could he discuss these points here, rather than on my talk page? Mathsci 19:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Since the movie poster is non-free, use of it has to follow WP:NFCC. The use of the image here failed #8 because it was just illustrating a list, and not did not "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic". The other image is listed at IFD and the discussion should be taken there. Rettetast 22:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The image of Regine Crespin is available at flickr [4], a site used by User:angr himself for uploading an image for Yo-Yo Ma here [5]. The film poster seems to me just as informative as the plate of swordfish. It also indicates in a fairly subtle way that Marseille has a certain reputation for crime, something quite hard to put into words. --Mathsci 01:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thumb sizes

Is there a particular reason we can't have the thumb sizes unspecified, as per the MoS? --Plangent 22:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You did not wait for any discussion; a day or two would be a good idea, just because of time differences between editing zones. You also seem to be a new editor to WP articles on France. Please feel free to contribute content to this article. However, please do not just push your point of view on the look of articles. If you happen to have any photographs of Marseille, that would be great, particularly Marseille from the sea. Also take some time to review previous discussions about images on this page. Do you in fact live in France and do you speak French? --Mathsci 00:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I have read the conversations relating to the images. As far as I can see, no one has said that any of the image sizes must be specified. Moreover, the changes I've made have previously been suggested, with no comment indicating disagreement. In absence of any objections (other than knee-jerk reverts), it seems quite reasonable to follow the MoS on this one.

Of course, if there are specific images which need embiggened or otherwise, I'm quite willing to listen to the reasons. --Plangent 00:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

embiggened?? What kind of word is that? You didn't seek consensus and have acted quite arbitrarily and hastily. Do you want to be reported on WP:AN/I for disruptive editing and vandalism? --Mathsci 01:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

"Embiggened" is a colloquialism for "made larger".

And by all means, take this to AN/I. --Plangent 02:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No, AN/I is not appropriate at the moment. I have enlarged the lead image, as in the WP:MOS. I have added an image of the Vieux-Port in the template (the image used on the French WP page). I have reversed the order of the painting of Estaque and the Opera House because the arrangement broke WP:MOS directives and skewed the headers in a quite unseemly way. I enlarged the picture of the port of Marseille as the lead picture for the long section on the Economy. As precedent I used the article on New York (one of the larger cities in the United States of America) where similar image scaling was used. Here I used the "common sense" part of the WP:MOS. I hope this is OK. --Mathsci 02:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No arguments from me. --Plangent 02:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you might be what the French call "un petit emmerdeur" :-)--Mathsci 09:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History, after Rome

This article states that Marseille "reverted to the Gauls" as Roman power declined, before joining the Franks. I've never seen anywhere else that Marseille was a free city before joining the Franks. Wasn't it taken by the Visigoths, then reverted back to Roman power, only to be captured by Odoacer or Theodoric the Ostrogoth? I didn't think the Franks took control of the city until after Theodoric's death. Thomas Lessman (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right: there is a chronology of Marseille on the french wikipedia. If you're a history expert, please check/correct the whole of the history section. --Mathsci (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twin Towns

The twinning arrangements and the other trade agreements are taken from the official source of the Mairie de Marseille, provided in the main space article. The attributions of countries are exactly as specified there. The alphabetic order from the source has been respected. Several times WP editors have tried to place Glasgow at the head of the list, which has no justification. Equally well other editors have changed the declared country from Scotland to the UK. Here the country is taken as the country stated by the City of Marseille on the official page and copied from the deeds of agreement of 2006. User:58.179.79.215 (from Australia) has referred to "french ignorance" on my talk page [6]. He/she is a recently arrived, quite inexperienced editor, who shows signs of being racist. Mathsci (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tourist attractions and sites

I believe not every site in Marseille needs to be listed as per WP:NOT#TRAVEL , only the most prominent examples. Wikitravel may be another way to list these. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Which buildings or sites should be omitted and what criterion do you propose to use? The list does not appear to be overly long. 78.105.62.245 (talk) 08:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of Marseille

I am cleaning up the history section of Marseille using the encyclopedic 862 page book of Duchene and Contrucci, which I have added in a new references section. A number of small errors have crept in to the article. The French WP has an article on the Chronology of Marseille: this book contains a detailed chronology (pages 809-820), which could possibly be translated and, in shorter form, used as the basis of a separate wikipedia article. The complicated history of Marseille is certainly clarified by the French chronology page. Various anecdotes to which the recently arrived editor User:Michellecrisp has attached citation tags can easily be verified using this definitive source. Like me, she/he can now buy her own copy of this book(32 euros) or order it from her local library; that way she/he can avoid using unscholarly sources from the web and can check well-known facts about the Seige of Marseille herself/himself. The book is of course in French, as one might expect. Mathsci (talk) 09:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious that I am female. Using a book as a source is fine, but page references are preferred as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CITE#Provide_page_numbers Michellecrisp (talk) 15:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)