Talk:Marca Hispanica

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This material is more thoroughly and accurately treated at Marches#Catalonia and the "Spanish Marches" where is benefits from a broader context. I'd like to see this entry made a redirect. I don't want to act rashly, so let's talk about it for a month or two. --Wetman 22:43, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually the reverse would make more sense: prune the big article by moving most of that info over here. The Welsh Marches and the German marks all have their own articles. The Spanish March deserves no less. Bastie 20:38, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

"Pruning" shouldn't mean cannibalizing, so I've moved all the relevant material here, to be the Main Article: a briefer version remains at Marches, part of explaining what "marches" are. Now edit away! --Wetman 03:11, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Frankish names 2 Pamplona, Sanguesa and Aragon (Jaca) 3 Catalan 4 Removing Merge Tag

[edit] Frankish names

I read somewhere that Catalan (?) baptism records show a sudden popularity of Germanic names that cannot be attributed to just Frankish colonization, so the Marcans decided that Frankish was the way of the future. (anon.)

Our anonymous contributor can't have read about baptism records, such as began to be kept in England in the 1550s. Such registers weren't being kept. Names that appear in Septimania and Catalonia are virtually all from elite social levels, where Frankish names are to be expected. --Wetman 11:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I may have misremembered. However I did a summary search and find:

¿CATALUÑA FRANCA O CATALUÑA GÓTICA?

Pero a la hora de abordar el núcleo de la cuestión, el problema del origen de la población de los condados catalanes y la presencia franca, contamos con un instrumento esencial, la antroponimia. Y en este campo se ha constatado que la práctica totalidad de los nombres de persona son de origen gótico. Las únicas excepciones son algunos nombres probablemente vascos.

Para las cuestiones etimológicas de la antroponimia visigótica en Cataluña véase sobre todo J.M. Piel y D. Kremer 1976.

En cuanto a los francos no podemos menos que citar al propio Bonnassie (1988, 27): «¿Y los francos? En cuanto a ellos, el silencio de las fuentes es tal que no se puede hablar de ellos sin dificultades. No aparecen nunca en los documentos. Ni al toponimia ni la antroponimia proporcionan, al parecer, datos precisos que les conciernan.

1 Aunque marginal al problema de los elementos franco y góticos en Cataluña quisiéramos señalar que en este trabajo Pierre Bonassie plantea algunas dudas sobre el valor de adscripción étnica de los testimonios antroponímicos, suponiendo que bajo ellos podían esconderse individuos de origen romano o indígenas. Sin embargo, si bien en el reino franco se produjo una cierta aceptación de la antroponimia germánica por parte de la población galo-romana, en la Hispania visigótica no se produjo un fenómeno por parte de las poblaciones hispano-romanas, lo que ha sido constatado con sorpresa por algún especialista francés. Véase Besga 2000, 518 y ss.

Besga Marrroquín, A., (2000) Orígenes hispano-godos del reino de Asturias, Oviedo.

Bonnassie, P., (1988) Cataluña mil años atrás, Barcelona.

Piel, J.M. y Kremer D., (1976) Hispano-gotisches Namenbuch, Heidelberg.

Whatever the Visigothic or Frankish etimology of names and the recent political use of that, I find it striking that Latinate names were not present.

[edit] Pamplona, Sanguesa and Aragon (Jaca)

This article is poorly sourced and in falls in some major errors, specially regarding the western Pyrenees.

First of all there was never ever an entity called county of Sanguesa. I wonder where did such concept was invented.

Second, Pamplona was only an political entity after 832 (third Battle of Roncevaux Pass), when it seceded from the Duchy of Vasconia, temporarily under firm control by Carolingian Franks, with the help of their Muslim allies of Tudela: the Banu Qasi. At that point Pamplona was born not as any dependent county but as a sovereign kingdom (see Kingdom of Navarre).

Third, Jaca, most commonly known as Aragon, was conquered by the Count of Vasconia Citerior, Aznar and eventually united to Pamplona. Its very mention in the concept of Marca Hispanica, the territories of the Eastern Pyrenees subject to Frankish control, is totally misleading. Even if Count Aznar was one of the few Basque monarchs that acknowldeged Frankish overlordship, his domains were part of the historical Duchy of Vasconia and not of the Spanish Mark.

Fourth there's no empirical reason to draw the Western Basques separated from Pamplona nor to call Vasconia "Aquitania", when this last term refered in the Middle Ages to the lands north and east of the Garonne.

In brief, the Marca Hispanica had its westernmost outpost at Sobrarbe, the lands west of it were part of the sometimes diffuse concept of Vasconia, an older Duchy and in the period of the creation of the MH, subject to continuous disputes between Franks, Muslims and Basques. The product of these struggles was the birth of a polity called Kingdom of Pamplona. Eventually northern Basques also get rid of the Frankish yoke but by then they were becoming Gascons (romance speakers) for the most part.

Note for documentation of what I'm saying, look at the footnotes/bibliography in the linked articles. --Sugaar 13:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan

Hi there. Just dropping a note here about the ever-so-sensitive topic of the Marcher Counts being called "Catalan". I don't want a storm to break loose over this, but is there actually any source whatsoever that associates these Counts with "Catalans"? Labelling areas and peoples with incorrect nationalities is extremely misguiding and confusing, especially when these labels are still used today in different contexts. I've taken the liberty of putting a "reference needed" tag at the end of "The title came to be applied to Catalonia before the start of the Reconquista", since I feel this assertion would need concrete referencing. I've also tagged the very general assertion of "and indeed is sometimes used to mean Catalonia alone" (the question being, by whom?). I've also made mention of the fact that the "Catalan Counties" referred to are the Marcher Counties in the territory of modern Catalonia.

And on a secondary note, I really think the editors of this article should revise that sentence stating "The region became the Kingdoms of Navarre, Aragón and Catalonia". As far as I know, historically there never was a Kingdom of Catalonia, but rather the County of Barcelona was integrated into the Kingdom of Aragon. If there's a historical source stating a "Kingdom of Catalonia", it would need to be cited.

I'd also eliminate the term "Spanish March" at the intro paragraph, for contextual reasons again. I don't think it's at all accurate from a historical perspective.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not another pro-Spanish pain in the backside trying to undermine any nationalistic feelings. I'm all for current, modern independence claims. However,I am a historian, and if this is an historical article, I think we should really stick to history and make an effort not to slip into political issues. Nationalism is a modern/contemporary history phenomenon, with its political and philosophical currents rooted in modern times. Applying its framework to ancient/medieval history only produces nonsense; let's not allow the Spanish related topics in the English Wikipedia fall into the sub-standard, pamphletary quality of the Spanish version.

Cheers! :) Dr Benway 14:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Where would the English-speaking reader look first? That's your sensible article title. The historic term "Spanish March" might need further explication, rather than suppressing it. A report on modern localist feelings about the term "Spanish Marches", if properly sourced, would make a useful addition at the bottom of the article. --Wetman 21:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)--Wetman 21:07, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Very good point, absolutely agree. After all the term "Spanish Marches" is very extended among the english speakers, as opposed to "Marca Hispánica" which is the standard Spanish term AFAIK. *nodnods* Dr Benway 07:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Merge Tag

Some time ago I proposed a merge with the Catalan Counties article. My reason was that I hadn't found any references to these "Catalan Counties" in any reliable sources, wether in texts or maps. After taking a careful look I did begin to see usage of the term in several history books. I still think the merge would be beneficial, but the main reasons that motivated the initial proposal are no longer valid :P Cheers! ;) Dr Benway 08:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)