Talk:Lieven
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An entry from Lieven appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 29 March 2006. |
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[edit] Avignon or Rome
Does the family legend speak of two travels or one only ?
from Lieven: A family legend has it that Caupo in 1202 went to Avignon, where the Pope Celestine III raised him to nobility with the last name "Lieve".
from Caupo of Turaida: ... who took him 1203-1204 all the way to Rome and introduced him to Pope Innocent III. The Pope was impressed of the converted pagan chief and presented him a manuscript Bible. When he returned from travel, his tribe rebelled against him ...
is there any reliable source for either trip ? --Gf1961 08:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Second thought: The shisma with shadow popes in Avignon was a lot later than 1200. Celestine III lived in Rome and died 1198. --Gf1961 12:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] From Latvian encyclopedia online
Need to work this into article, did a bit:
- Līveni (Lieven) - lībiešu izcelsmes Balt. aristokratu dzimtas piederīgie, ko vēsturn. Dr. Francis Balodis uzskatīja par lībiešu valdnieka Kaupo tiešiem pēctečiem.
- Pēc lēņu grāmatām Līvenu sencis Gerardus Līvo 1269 un viņa dēls Johannes (filius Gerardi Lyvonis) 1292 bijuši Rīgas archibīskapa vasaļi. Tās pašas dzimtas piederīgie bija arī vēlākie baroni un grāfi Ungerni-Šternbergi (Ungern-Sternberg). Šī dzimta 1653 ieguva zv. brīvkungu tiesības, 1719 kļuva Zviedr. grāfi, 1799 Kriev. grāfi, 1801 ieguva romiešu valstsgrāfu ties., kopš 1826 Kriev. firsti, 1862 ieguva kr. baronu tiesības. L. dzimtā radušies daudzi ievērojami valstsvīri, kaŗavīri, diplomāti un polītiķi.
- Latvju enciklopēdija 1962-1982. 2.sējums, 540.-541.lpp.
That is...
- - Baltic aristocratic family descended from the Livs, whom historian Francis Balodis deemed to be the direct descendants of Liv ruler Kaupo.
- According to feudal records the Līven ancestor Gerardus Līvo 1269 and his son Johannes (filius Gerardi Lyvonis [Latin]) 1292 had been vassals to the Riga archbishop. That same family's descendants were also the later barons and counts/earls ["grāfs" can mean either, haven't checked English sources, I'll use "count"] von Ungern-Sternberg. This family in 1653 acquired Swedish baronial rights, in 1719 became Swedish counts, in 1799 became Russian counts, in 1801 acquired Roman [Holy Roman Empire] state count rights, since 1826 Russian nobility [I'm assuming that for "firsti" until I can get to a dictionary], and in 1862 acquired Russian baronial rights. Many noteable statesmen, soldiers, diplomats and politicians have come from the Lieven family.
- Latvian encyclopedia (issued 1962-1982), volume 2, pages 540-541
(retrieved online at the URL I added to the article) —PētersV 23:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
