Talk:Lech Wałęsa
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[edit] Old talk
Lech Walesa es not Danziger
I have two related concerns about this page: (1) Most important, I am unable to authenticate what Walesa is claimed to have said to the United Nations Security Council about attacking Iraq. Mr Walensa has made a number of comments on this subject and we should try to present a balanced view. (2) The article uses the word "recently", without indicating a date. Perhaps we should include date information when we speak of something's having happened recently.
Two other concers: This page is completely NPOV. The most important information seems to be he was a "double spy" which has never been proved or documented in any serious way. Except this alomost nothing is said about his real political and social activity - the things which, contrary to his "double spying", are well proved and documented. The statement "a anti-communist puppy" is NPOV by itself.
Well - I have decided to change this page quite seriously. I have added the list of basic facts about Lech Wałęsa and have changed the "spy" story making its much more NPOV (at least IMHO). Sorry for my bad English.
- Yes, it's much improved. There still seems to be far too much of the "spy" stuff. All of the various theories are largely the same and seem to lack evidence. Perhaps we join these together and make the section a bit shorter? -- Finlay McWalter 00:41, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've done some fixups to the english spelling and grammar of this (otherwise excellent) article. I'll probably do some more, and perhaps some reformatting. In addition, I have some language questions which can hopefully be answered by Polish-speaking wikipedians: -- Finlay McWalter 23:52, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Q1 The article is a bit inconsistent about whether "Gdanska Shipyard" is singular (i.e. there's one big shipyard) or plural (i.e. there are several shipyards). Which is correct? -- Finlay McWalter 23:52, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
-
- Thank you for your help. Stocznia Gdańska is the polish name of a shipyard in Gdańsk. There are some other like Gdańska Stocznia Remontowa or Stocznia Północna, but Wałęsa worked only in that one. Gdańska is polish adjective from word Gdańsk, stocznia means shipyard.Gdarin 07:07, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Q2 I changed "war state" and "war law" to "martial law", which is the common english idiom. Roughly, this means a state of military rule when normal governmental and judicial processes are suspended and citizen's rights severely constrained. I assume this is what happened in 1982? -- Finlay McWalter 00:12, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
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- Martial law is ok. But it happened in December 13, 1981. Gdarin 07:07, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Q3 was imprisioned in a "luxury jail" since October 1982. I assume this means that he went INTO the jail in October 1982, right? -- Finlay McWalter 00:32, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This is awful - the only part that's actually an article is about ridiculous conspiracy theories. Someone should turn the timeline into paragraphs. john k 08:09, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I've rearranged the points form into paragraphs as suggested. No information has been added or removed. jp
[edit] Movie
What was the film about him? Iron Man, or something? I remember it was notable. Must go into the article.mikka (t) 16:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Andrzej Wajda's Man of Iron, is what i think you're talking about. Wajda's earlier Man of Marble, about Communism in the 1950's and 1960's, is also excellent.
- "Man of Iron" (a sequel to "Man of Marble") takes place during the strikes of 1980. It features some stock footage of Wałęsa, but I wouldn't say it's about him; he's mainly there to provide historical background. --24.58.13.127 21:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I would. The central figure, i.e. the Man of Iron-whom the main character has been sent to slander-is Lech Walesa. mercruz (t) 16:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Spoken Version
This article is on the Spoken Wikipedia request list, so I am going to make a recording. If any of you want to add any significant changes, notify me now.
Markkasan 20:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I see no reason to include a mispronunciation of his name in English at the top of the article, and for this reason removed all but the correct pronunciation. I am not very nationalistic but find it mildly offensive. Many Americans butcher many world leader's names - are we to start including phonetic mispronunciations at the top of encyclopedia articles?
-- Random Pole
Random pole is rights. It is utter madness to include the MISpronounciation - e.g. how it is read by an englishman with no idea about the Polish language 84.167.245.86 11:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
The reasons for move copied from the entry on the WP:RM page:
- Talk:Lech Wałęsa — Lech Wałęsa → Lech Walesa – see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English)#Diacritics, South Slavic languages, especially #A Polish/French-English example and #A Polish-English example on that talk page --Francis Schonken 11:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
- Support --Francis Schonken 11:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. This amounts to disinformation IMO.
ナイトスタリオン ✉ 12:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC) - Oppose. Lech Walesa would be pronounced differently from Lech Wałęsa in Polish. Not being Polish myself or knowing any Slavic language, I learned already as a child how to pronounce these Polish letters thanks to the name of this guy (just from listening to the news). I can't see why it would be a problem for anyone else to do so. up◦land 12:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose — the above link is to the talk page on a Wikipedia guideline, not the guideline itself. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#Disputed issues is the relevant link, and that says that the discussion is still open. Redirects are cheap, so no one can get lost by not bothering to type the correct letters. These letters are meaningful, suggest the correct pronunciation, and, dare I say, the more correct spelling. --Gareth Hughes 13:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose, as per Gareth Hughes. Olessi 16:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. Diacritics are allowed as far as I know. Or they should be in my opinion, because that would be encyclopedic. I am all for using English whenever is possible on this Wikipedia. However this is a polish personal name, not an english one, there is no such thing as a translation (unless someone knows what the english translation of the name "Lech" would be). This is not such a serious case that it would warrant to be written incorrectly in my humble opinion. Gryffindor 22:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose of course. By dropping the diacrytes one does not create an English name. The thing he creates is "someone's name written without diacrytes". Nothing more. Halibutt 17:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose obviously. Compare Gerhard Schröder, Göran Persson, Wolfgang Schüssel, Dag Hammarskjöld, Halldór Ásgrímsson etc etc etc etc! Balcer 19:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose How dare you suggest spelling his name Walesa- I am Polish, Walesa and Wałęsa sound nothing alike. W is a v in Polish, ł is a w etc. This is Anglo-Saxon biggotry- How about we spell Winston Churchill will Polish diattricts?
[edit] Discussion
- Add any additional comments
- I have an impression that this move proposal is in fact a splinter of the Talk:Níðhöggr/archive1#Article should have English title voting, in which Lech Wałęsa was used by yours truly as an example that the lack of diacrytes does not make an English name. Halibutt 02:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
- NOTE In North America, it is written "Lech Walesa", without diacritics. Arguments about it being not Polish should not be relevant, as this is not the polish wikipedia. The article title should be readable by anyone with *solely* English as their background. It should be written using solely English letters (which *should* mean ASCII only plus Æ and Œ ) All arguments about people being multilingual have no traction, as not everyone is multilingual, and this is the English Wikipedia, not the "every languange ever existing" version. The proper original language form should be noted in the article, and may even be used throughout the article following a "herein referred to as original name" clause, but it should not be an article title. 132.205.45.148 22:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Result
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. WhiteNight T | @ | C 01:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Recentism?
Following section was added to the Lech Walesa article:
==Recent controversy==
Lech Walesa has recently had to face up to accusations that he was a paid agent of the Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa (state security service) for more than 10 years during his rise to the top of the Solidarity movement the in Gdansk shipyards (during the 1970's). Walesa, under the codename "Bolek" (Lech Walesa's father's name), is said to have been recruited to pass information to the SB, and was bumped into the top leadership position within Solidarity by other embedded agents of the SB in an attempt to control the movement. His subsequent break from SB control is attributed to a new arrangement Walesa made with the CIA, then headed by George H. W. Bush.
Prior to the 2000 presidential election, Walesa was cleared to hold political office by a special "vetting court" (lustracja), which held that photocopies of documents pertaining to agent "Bolek", including signed receipts for payments from the SB, were inadmissible. The original documents, if they in fact existed, are said to have been pulled from SB files and destroyed during Walesa's term as the first president of a newly-democratic Poland, 1990-95.
Poland, unlike most other former soviet satellite states, never publicly opened the records of the state security apparatus following the disintegration of the Soviet block. While unproven and hotly contested, this version of Walesa's past is being increasingly discussed in Poland (as of December 2005). Walesa has been accused of this on numerous occasions on Polish television and radio shows, and responds in an increasingly angered way, threatening to take libel action if the accusations continue. Whether true or not, the allegations underscore the immense political savvy, however opportunistic, of a man who went from shipyard electrician without a high school degree to the president of his nation and international anti-communist mascot.
I moved this section to the talk page for following reasons:
- Isn't this wikipedia:recentism?
- Sources re. the introduced information seem to lack: could user:Jak lefataliste (who introduced the section) or anybody else give some references, preferably reliable sources, to back this story? I mean, I have no idea whether this is tabloid level, or better, or worse?
- The section is hardly wikified, so if it would be OK to keep it in the article, at least some lay-out improvements would be recommended.
--Francis Schonken 13:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Jak_lefataliste, 31st December 2005:
- Sources? He's been on Polish TV countless times over the past year, facing up to the accusations. If you have no idea of the current situation in Polish politics then you have no right to be deleting things such as this. It is 'every tv channel, radio station and newspaper (broadsheet and tabloid)' level. The section on 'lustracja' is not mentioned anywhere else in the article - leaving it out makes the entry 5 years out of date.
- How is putting something back (with substantial changes, i might add) that was there 2 years ago 'recentism'?
- If it's not 'Wikified' then why don't you 'wikify' it, rather than deleting the whole thing?
[edit] Reasons, significance of his actions?
The article seems to be missing the reasons he opposed the Soviet Union, why he supported the strike in the first place, and what was so bad about living under the Soviet Bloc (and no, it isn't enough to assume his actions speak for themselves). Why did he support Margaret Thatcher? Why did he go to Reagan's funeral (and why did he support him)? I know why, and plenty of others know why, so why isn't any of this in the article? Kamikaze Highlander 20:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
- This man is the greatest Pole since Piłsudski; he ended communism without a shot. I only hope he runs for President again as he has hinted.
NO HE IS NOT! - Let's the truth please stand out First of all the greatest pole of 20 century for the real Poles, and the patriots, was and would be for ever Colonel Ryszard Jerzy Kuklinski Ryszard Kuklinski, and the second one was Karol Wojtyła, known to all as John Paul II. The communism in Poland was ended with the participation of colonel Ryszard Jerzy Kuklinski, John Paul II, Ronald Reagan, and Mikhail Gorbachev. The role of Lech Wałęsa was rather "an accident at work' of Polish Security Agency.
As for Wałesa you might look at the real evidence: The production of Polish Television of Wrocław 2006,:
- Nocna zmiana|The night shift
- Slowa prawdy|The words of truth
- interview with Anna Walentynowicz part 1
- interview with Anna Walentynowicz part 2
- LIST OTWARTY KAZIMIERZA SWITONIA DO LECHA WAŁĘSY
It is worth to notice than after the production of that documentary the director Grzegorz Braun of the documentary was asked by TV censorship (who are the TV censors? - Marek Maldis, Zbigniew Wawer, Halina Marszałek, Bronisław Maślanka, Małgorzata Grzybowska the Legal Counsel - the ex communists!?!) to edit the film and delete the negative evidence about Wałesa, "because" he was the polish president (who himself destroyed the files at the National Security Services - Słuzba bezpieczeństwa). However because in those movies are testifying the coworkers who knew who really Wałesa was, the director correctly refused to do so. The witnesses in this documentary at their "free will" with no external pressure from others, spoke as themselves. Those documentaries include the interview with Lech Wałęsa, and as primitive as he really is, just by watching his body language and the behavior one can conclude where lies the real truth. As a pole, I have no respect for the traitor. Those movies are never shown on TV, nor in the movie theaters, for well understood political reasons. The words of Anna Walentynowicz, Joanna i Andrzej Gwiazdowie, Krzysztof Wyszkowski, Henryk Lenarcik i Henryk Jagielski. Braun calls the testimony of Lech Wałęsa himself from his own book: "The road of Hope" („Droga nadziei”) published in 1990 r., at which Wałęsa confesed himself, that he the surrender himself to to the security agents: "It is the truth that I myself have not surfaced totally clean. They (The Security Agents) made me a condition "The signature", so than I've signed" - („I prawdą jest też, że z tego starcia nie wyszedłem zupełnie czysty. Postawili mi warunek: podpis! I wtedy podpisałem”. So that is the truth about Wałęsa. Contrary to him, I never signed anything for the security agents. Ever, and never! Was he the great man youthink, or was he the colaborator andthe traitor with the security agents? Download the documentaries and watch them. Only than make your own opinion about it.
The censors of Polish TV are claiming that the President deserves a better treatment.
- The press review of the documentary "Plusy dodatnie, plusy ujemne” ("Pluses positive, Pluses negative") about the confidential informer, later agent code name „Bolek”.
31/10/07
Excuse us for posting copy of our email to Solidarnosc. With the great understanding of world affairs, diplomacy, church and fraternal issues one is brought by to speak, make statement and write about issues in due measures. Polite speaking a very great deal of issues, events they are not the reality unless one know, have been involved fist hand. We have tried to explain a number of issues relating not to Mr Lech Walesa - to the COMECON, USSR, OAU - The cold war - East V West.
To further prove that a very great deal of what have been written and said about changes in Poland, the COMECON, USSR have not been transparent, those involved, have over the past made what is term, as intervention in the affairs of EU - expansion, Poland proper, Russia and African Union. (We gave a single large pear to a respectable Polish female in London two weeks ago our reason) Also note, we were in contact with Polish business Cartel in Austria, Germany, Italy, USA way back in 1978. The state of politic in the world and COMECON
What the world need to understand - like so many leading personality, are selected, given certain opportunity, supported and assisted during their work, efforts, including many Heads of State in the world and young politicians across the world, artist, scientist. Mr Lech Walesa was one of them. If those of you insist on having proof we will provide the proof.
We are very concern, that in the new world order after " The fall of the Berlin Wall" Not Mr Lech Walesa, Not the USA, those network which contributed to those great changes - the hope for a better society. Instead everything was taken over by deceit, lies and cover up. Because of this situation the grave danger of a Third World war which have happened 3 times the past 15 years.
There are those form the Polish nation - to cover up, they are prepared to inflict any amount of harm to those who have help them and continue to help the. We got threatened by a leading Polish company involved, represention 1000ventures.com a Russian project. Those same people ought to remember we from Seychelles we have worked with the KGB, all the COMECON spy agencies, the Chinese a others - we know how one think and react.
This morning after we had posted this email request to Solidarnosc on two forum, those from the Polish community who unleashed the British Police on us with all kind of threats and intimidation.
We have two project: [1]
: Seychelles community in EU wikipedia
Below is a copy of the email.
Reply with quote
Independent Self-Governing Trade Union -Solidarnosc International Department ul. Wały Piastowskie 24, 80-855 Gdańsk, Poland tel.: +48 (5Cool 308 42 32 fax: 308 44 82 30/10/07
Re: Your representation in London
Dear friends at Solidarnosc,
Greetings to you. Because we have not recieve a reply to our Seychelles EU community Email written 3 months ago from Fmr President Lech Walensa Foundation /Institute decided to write to you.
We have also had a brief meeting with the Vicar of the Polish Islington church – London, off Gerrard Rd, N1 late Spring concerning the same request. We had a long meeting with a Polish Project on Holloway Rd , the Islington Scout Center – they closed their project one month later. Upon the suggestion of the Polish church explained briefly the topic on the leading Polish Forum.
On the other side of the road had long standing /working relation with a leading IT company DATASYNC – Holloway rd, for some 10 years , they closed down two weeks ago some of the corporate issues we have discussed with the executives of the company.
We wish to underline – from Vienna 1978/81 we were associated with a leading Polish corporate Cartel. We also met a young Polish couple at the Vienna Trieskirchen refugee Larger – with church assisted them to migrate to Australia.
In London some of the very complex and complicated network we build/link with Solidarnosc. The first ever London wide Project/business identification and Funding for refugee/exile – from the British Refugee Council side Senior Manager JJ Yarsky, based at the Old Post office, next to New Scotland Yard.
BRC, the numerous voluntary agencies, and funding bodies including UNHCR complete refusal to assist the Seychelles exile/refugee – Acting upon his own decided to give the Seychelles exile/refugee community – UKSCA, its first typewriter – golf ball. We were based at Hounslow - HVC and Kilburn, Brent, 87a Victoria Rd.
We were formerly introduced later to the Leaders of Solidarnosc Great Britain, other Officials and staff. Many of the issues we have written about, explained these past 20 years – given the political system which existed in Seychelles and Poland – the COMECON.
Prior to our Seychelles EU Community putting its Portal and wikipedia together a very great deal about who, what the community was all about, represented kept in the dark, suppressed, distorted. We have underline a number of very important factors, issues which our Seychelles EU community represent and the Pied Noir, Harkis community- North Africa. Most important we have underline our Community ability, given our French, European ancestral/archaic heritage to contribute very importantly to very many small and important issues of the EU, from the Commission, the Parliament, economy, politic to date and with confidence the future. Please also visit some of the forums we have addressed the Seychelles/Seychelles EU community past issues and relation linked to the Portal.
Our Seychelles EU community have endevoured to maintain the same friendship it had with the Cartel in Vienna 1978 and the large Polish network in Britain and EU ever since.
There are certain issues, as we say in our jargon network relation – it is best done/work with old friend – for this reason we had requested the Lech Walesa Foundation/Institute to provide us the address of Solidarnosc office in London. Given also the important progress the Polish community have made these past 5 years in Britain, the need to maintain contact at appropriate level for our own community progress.
We thank you for your amicable response.
Mean while, do accept the good wishes of our Commuity. Yours sincerely,
Portal:http://seyeu.com/ Project: Seychelles community in EU wikipedia
Note: We have tried to explain certain issues to wikipedia those that have done everything to silence the Seychelles EU community, its unique role which led to changes in Poland/why, the COMECON, the USSR and OAU.
We ask staff and member of wikipedia to excuse long explanation. Grandlarousse 10:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Couple
Microsoft word says it should be has both in UK an US English. Dan D. Ric 05:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Agent
myślę, że wypadało by napisać co nieco o tym jak obecnie postrzegają go Polacy, a opinię w swoim kraju ma wręcz fatalną
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Umedard (talk • contribs) 14:24, 25 October 2006)
[edit] Scaling the wall
The article states that Wałęsa scaled the wall in order to return to the shipyard. Other sources say that he was brought there by boat, apparently bt the secret service. It seems that Wałęsa admits in his memoirs to cooperating with the secret service and doing some not fully honourable deeds.
This is related to the point brought up under Recentism above. I understand that rumors may come up quickly and some may even be similar to character assassination. On the other hand, this does not justify the inclusion of irrecentist, i.e. older, rumours. It would be nice if knowledgeable people, preferably from Poland, told us, if either of the claims -- scaling the wall vs. being brought by boat -- has any evidence. -- Zz 11:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Central Inteligence of America
- Anyone knows how many bucks he received from CIA during the 80's? Thanks!
mhm, he'd rather receive money from KGB
[edit] Pictures
The main picture is extremely pixelated and the other pictures are missing captions, can anyone who knows more about this guy work on that ?Mbisanz 23:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Medical
From New York Times, Sept. 5, 2007:
- Poland: Walesa to Get a Pacemaker
- By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
- Lech Wałesa, the Solidarity leader and Poland’s first president after Communism, said he would be having surgery to have a defibrillator fitted for an irregular heart beat. "I am nearly 65 years old and I have to be careful," he said. "The only thing that remains of my virility is my need to shave."
Too much information, Lech! :-)
Sca 16:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- You have to admit, it IS funny. He was just discharged after having a couple of procedures [2] for his heart and feels better. Even had the good humor to taunt dictators. As he gets older, perhaps this might be relevant on his article? --Hourick (talk) 14:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Honorary Doctorates
The honors section says that Lech Walesa has received 32 doctorates and is supported by a reference from Walesas official website. This information is faulty. His 33rd doctoral reception was in Trois Rivieres in Quebec, Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanleymilgram (talk • contribs) 18:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WTF!!! Wałęsa has coat of arms? since when, who said so?
any proves for that, I've never seen before such a coat of arms, he isn't nobile - it's enough to take a loo at his name... besides let someone xpand article with section 'falandyzacja prawa'...
Iznogud —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iznogud (talk • contribs) 14:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
