Talk:Hoxton

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yuppified? no one uses that word in the east end especially not in hoxton!

Gilbert and George 'live' in Spitalfields. Emin lived on Brick Lane.

Tracey Emin and Gilbert and George live on Fournier Street, Spitalfields. The Chapman Brothers are also based in Spitalfields (Fashion Street). This article refers to residents 'In recent years', but what is the timescale of recent? Randomdaftname 20:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Curtain Road was established as an artists centre earlier, atleast in the early 80s.

'Fraid 'yuppified' is in use, though I try to avoid it personally. I will not speak for the trendy bit of Hoxton, but it's common enough usage in north Hackney, I hear it all the time. But this piece and Shoreditch need a lot of work anyway. In particular, disentangling Shoreditch and Hoxton needs doing. Plus there is no mention here of the non-trendy parts of Hoxton, which cover a large area, largely estates, but abutting on to the historic market with the Music Hall and all that... Tarquin Binary 16:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Hoxton and Shoreditch 2 Wiki not a directory ... 3 Cultural Attractions in Hoxton & around 4 Notes and References 5 The Victorian era and the 20th Century: Toy museum

[edit] Hoxton and Shoreditch

About half this article describes 'South Shoreditch' rather than Hoxton! As far as I'm aware the southern border of Hoxton has always been Old Street. Therefore to describe the former Shakespearian theatres of Curtain road as being in Hoxton is just plain wrong. The merging of identities between Hoxton and Shoreditch either side of Old street describes a socio-cultural phenomenon (the rise of the 'Shoreditch Twat') which only started in the 90's. To retroject this identity back to the 16th century is incorrect Colin4C 20:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest you go ahead and change it! Geography gets tough, and the continuous buildings probably merged as early as Tudor times! You're damn right about Curtain Rd though ... maybe this article should have the material we spoke about earlier on the Britannia Music Hall; and of course Hoxton Hall in Hoxton High Street. I think 'our Trace' used to live on Gt Eastern - which of course is again, Shoreditch ... The article would certainly benefit from being sectioned, to make some sense of the historical and modern aspects. I prefer 'trend-settlers' to 'yuppies'! Kbthompson 13:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

More geography ... Hoxton was a rural part of Shoreditch until the vestry reorganisation of 1820 (damn those vestries again). Have a look at [1] ; [2] (this puts the original site of the Britannia beyond Circus Space) and [3] is a mine of information - if a little patchy. Googling 'Hoxton Mad Houses' is also a major time distraction, but as I said somewhere else, 'the more it changes, the more it stays the same' ... I think the problem of the BritArt movement happily moving across Hoxton, Shoreditch and Tower Hamlets could be resolved by a seperate article. Kbthompson 13:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Replaced 'shakespeare' misinformation with genuine Hoxton history; ShoHo stuff moved to another section - where it kinda makes more sense - will revisit it. Need to revisit and extend history and put in some references. Note to self - add history of vestry power and rubbish - also found some local references to gunpowder plot, but haven't followed it up - probably those dastardly Treshams again. Your thoughts/edits welcomed Kbthompson 17:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hoxton was part of the Metropolitan Borough of Shoreditch until 1965. Historically Shoreditch has until recently been the senior partner in the contested relationship between the two. Thus it is plausible to locate the Britannia Music Hall as in both Hoxton and Shoreditch. What would be wrong though would be to locate Curtain road or (say) Shoreditch High Street as in Hoxton. 'Hoxton' was a sub-species genera of 'Shoreditch' until, as mentioned before, the awesome world-shaking rise of the Shoreditch twat in the 90's gave ShoHo/Hoxditch a distinctive identity of its own. As far as I can make out the latter is an amalgam the southern part of Hoxton (north Hoxton still being off-limits for Twats and/or trend-setters) and 'South Shoreditch', though I have noticed a certain Hoxtonisation (trendy bars etc) of Shoreditch High Street lately. However, I am still puzzled as to whether there is a 'west-Hoxton' or if by going in this direction you re-enter a penumbra of a 'greater Shoreditch'. Maybe someone who lives there could tell us... Colin4C 08:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, but I'm not sure we can make too much of the distinction. Historically Hoxton (rural Shoreditch)->independent parish (ie vestry committee)->Shoreditch boro->Hackney; so, there's one conflation over time. There's another in people's heads about the area. The trendy bars, the new media organisations, the artists - and what I don't think the article makes clear is that these are linked, but very different movements. I remember Hoxton in the late 70's when the Treble Cleff and Bass Cleff were in Hoxton Mkt, and at the forefront of jazz and world music; they're gone, but that's probably the first gentle spring of 'trendification'. I'm too aged to go into 'yoof' trends, so don't know about the modern clubs. I think the place for the article is probably here, linked from Shoreditch, as Hoxton Sq has some seminal importance to the trend. It certainly needs rewriting to remove the geo-confusion from people's heads, but to show it's a distinct change affecting a wide area. Wandering again, I went to see a new media organisation, on Old Street. They had a drum kit in their office, I knew there would be no major synergy here! (PS I was glad I got the madhouse reference in). West Hoxton, is surely over by Old Street roundabout, and associated with things like Jamie Oliver's restuarant? Kbthompson 09:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think, that despite the creation of a Hoxton parish (plus others) out of the original parish of St Leonards, in the 19th century, that authority over the whole area was still invested in the Shoreditch vestry - whose jurisdiction was later subsumed by Shoreditch Borough Council.

As for West Hoxton/Shoreditch anomaly I was thinking particularly of the presence of Shoreditch Park NW of Hoxton. This is not in ShoHo/Hoxditch either...On a slightly different topic I find that Pimlico used to be in Hoxton, as the name of a pub or brand of ale, before migrating (by stages...) to its present position...Colin4C 10:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I can resolve that one. The Pimlico Pleasure Gardens used to be on the site of the Britannia. From British History on-line ...

Etymology of Pimlico—

The name Pimlico is clearly of foreign derivation, and it has not a little puzzled topographers. Gifford, in a note in his edition of Ben Jonson, tells us that "Pimlico is sometimes spoken of as a person, and may not improbably have been the master of a house once famous for ale of a particular description;" and we know, from Dodsley's "Old Plays," and from Ben Jonson's writings, that there was another Pimlico at Hoxton, or (as the place was then termed) Hogsdon, where, indeed, to the present day there is a "Pimlico Walk." It is evident, from a reference to The Alchemist of Ben Jonson, that the place so named at "Hogsdon" was a place of resort of no very good repute, and constantly frequented by all sorts of people, from knights, ladies, and gentlewomen, down to oyster-wenches:— Gallants, men, and women, And of all sorts, tag-rag, been seen to flock here, In these ten weeks, as to a second Hogsdon, In days of Pimlico.

In another play of about the same period a worthy knight is represented as sending his daughter to Pimlico "to fetch a draught of Derby ale." It is antecedently probable, therefore, that the district lying between Chelsea and St. James's Park should have got the name from an accidental resemblance to its antipodes at Hoxton. And this supposition is confirmed by Isaac Reed, who tells us, in Dodsley's "Old Plays," how that "a place near Chelsey is still called Pimlico, and was resorted to within these few years on the same account as the former at Hogsdon." It may be added that Pimlico is still celebrated for its ales, and also that the district is not mentioned by the name of Pimlico in any existing document prior to the year 1626.

So, Pimlico was probably a foreign person, who ran insalubrious pleasure gardens at Hoxton, and the w London version is derived from the area providing similar entertainments in later times. HTH Kbthompson 11:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Colin, thank you for your amendments. In particular, 'damn that passive voice'! I was particularly pleased to chase down the gunpowder plot material. Hoxton was a real cross-generational hotbed of catholics. It's actually beginning to look like quite a nice article. I answered your Huguenot question in Whitechapel, if a little belattedly ... 22:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki not a directory ...

There's a couple of problems with this edit.

1. Hoxton and Shoreditch are world famous as a centre of 'new' art.
2. Prior discussion on a number of the Hackney pages has indicated that there is a demand for such a list.

While I absolutely agree that Wiki is not intended to advertise services, or to merely list local services, it does exist to reflect the nature and character of the area. But then, perhaps you didn't read the articles before committing the edits? Kbthompson 08:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The following was removed from the maintext ...

[edit] Cultural Attractions in Hoxton & around

This list includes some attractions in nearby Shoreditch, some in Bethnal Green. The Sho-Ho gallery scene is in constant flux, so the list is by no means complete, and many of the original Hoxton galleries have now moved further afield - as leases expire and gentrification takes its toll

• Victoria Miro Gallery 16 Wharf Road, N1 (private gallery in converted Victorian furniture factory
• Book Works 19 Hollywell Row, EC2 (art publishers)
• Vertigo 62 Great Eastern Street, EC2 (private gallery in former ropeworks)
• Bookart Bookshop 17 Pitfield Street, N1
• Standpoint Gallery 45 Coronet Street, N1 (low cost workshop, studio and exhibition space)
• Deluxe Gallery 2-4 Hoxton Square, N1 (private gallery)
• White Cube2 48 Hoxton Square, N1 (private gallery)
• Dominic Berning First Floor, 1 Hoxton Street, N1 (private gallery)
• Stuckism International 3 Charlotte Road, EC2 (eh, its a movement ...)
• The Agency Gallery 15a Cremer St, EC2 (private gallery) Haggerston
• INIVA 6-8 Standard Place, Rivington Street, EC2
• Vilma Gold now in Bethnal Green (private gallery)
• Modern Art now (apparently) in Bethnal Green (private gallery)
• T 1&2 Artspace Bedford House, Wheler Street, E1 (private gallery off Brick Lane)
• Flowers East 82 Kingsland Road, E2 (private gallery)
• Wiebke Morgan Gallery 6 Cyprus Street, E2 Bethnal Green? (private gallery)
• Century Gallery ACAVA, 1-15 Cremer Street, E2 (private gallery)
• Geffrye Museum Kingsland Road, E2 (furniture & domestic life)
• The Alpine Club 55 Charlotte Road, EC2A (exhibitions on mountains and climbing)
• The Centre of Attention is a not-for-profit artists organisation, now in Upper Clapton
• Cell Project Space now in Bethnal Green
• MW Projects 43B Mitchell Street, EC1 (private gallery near Old Street
• Neon Gallery 117 Commercial Street, E1 (private gallery)

Most private galleries are free, but it is normally best to contact them first to check both the exhibition and if there is a need to make an appointment. The information here has been verified in October 2006

This has now been put back in the article, see UK geography 'Places of Interest' for justification as per wiki UK policy. Kbthompson 14:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it again, as it is much too long, impossible to keep up to date, and there are plenty of websites that offer arts listings. There is already an overemphasis on art in the article, as galleries etc can only be really found at the south end of Hoxton and. From a quick survey, maybe two or three galleries at most on the list are even in hoxton anyway. 78.86.18.55 (talk) 12:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes and References

Just wondering why the notes and references have been placed in the body of the article, after the historical section, rather than at the end of the article. This could result in a bizarre situation unparrelled in the wikipedia if someone added notes to the text in the sections after the notes and references section. Colin4C 13:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

HiCol, I'd be surprised if people added notes and references to the sections below the article, I just noted in several places, that that section is drifting further and further away from what it references. 'Residents' shouldn't have substantive content, 'travel' shouldn't have notes, similarly 'external links'. So, I don't think it would be a problem (famous last words ...).

On another matter, wodja think of removing the galleries? Several people specifically said it was a good idea ... but the guy does have a point. Kbthompson 15:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

IMHO anything in the wikipedia which provides positive information about a subject is OK: including the location of art galleries (which, as you say, is what Hoxton is mostly famous for these days). Readers can then make what they want (or not) out of it. However I noticed that the guy who removed the section is an admin, so maybe it's best not to get on the wrong side of him...as we might get sucked into an edit war on the minutiae of wikipedantry and get hammered into the canvas by the masters of that arcane art.Colin4C 18:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a call that could go either way; that's why I didn't immediately put it back. I'll get on the wrong side of anyone, if I know I'm right, but this is indeterminate; and I'm too old to feel emotionally attached to it. I had a go at fiddling with Haggerston, but it seems uniquely placed as having the world completely pass it by (on the other side of the road). Kbthompson 18:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I ventured into Haggerston once: but I was young and foolish in those days. Another thing I was wondering about is the private mental asylums of Hoxton. I'm sure there is a tale to tell there: most probably a Gothic one of heiresses driven mad and locked up by their conniving relations who want to get their hands on their assets. Colin4C 19:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You can see them on this, I thought I'd included a reference, but I guess I discarded it because it's CR - Map of Hoxton Madhouses. If you really want to go barmy - if only for the page design, try this. The story doesn't seem that Gothic - more the middle classes stockpiling their inconvenient relatives. These were paying guests, so were well treated. It's the public asylums, attached to the workhouses that are far more Gothic horror. Kbthompson 19:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to remember where Renfield the wannabee vampire lunatic in 'Dracula' was incarcerated. I don't think it was in a public asylum, but he was rather in a private asylum run by Dr Seward, but whether that was in Hoxton I'm somewhat doubtful. I think there is a private madhouse featured in Wilkie Collins' 'The Woman in White', which however I have never read...As for the public asylums yes, I seem to recall Boris Karloff as the sadistic overseer in the film 'Bedlam', getting his charges to do a variety act at Vauxhall Gardens (as one does...). Colin4C 12:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Dr Seward's establishment is next to Carfax Abbey - for plot purposes; the Abbey I believe is thought to lie in the region of Purfleet ... Doesn't most of the action of Woman in White occur in Fulham? There's a section where they hide in the 'forest of houses'; but I don't think that's identified ... There were literally thousands of private asylums, many at places like Epping; just out London, but not too close! Kbthompson 13:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Victorian era and the 20th Century: Toy museum

The link to the toy museum is currently labelled Pollack's Toy Museum. I'm pretty sure this is either vandalism or a typo for POLLOCK's - or have I just stepped into a minefield? Pterre (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)