Talk:Hominini

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What's the group that homo and australopithecines are in that pan isn't in?--68.92.122.110 22:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Subtribe Himinina. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

In anthropological literature, Chimps are not included in Hominini, which includes only the genera Homo, Australopithecus and Paranthropus. (Sort of, your lumper/splitter mileage may vary.) Thomas Greiner explains here: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/Apr2003/1050350684.Ev.r.html

That's outdated, by about 2-3 years now. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 What the heck is "Himinina"? 2 Article is incorrect 3 Status of the genus Pan 4 replies to all of the above 5 chimps

[edit] What the heck is "Himinina"?

UtherSRG, don't you mean subtribe Hominina? My question is, if members of Hominini (humans and chimps) are called hominins, what are members of Hominina (humans only) called? Humans? Homins? Homininans? Obviously, we can't call them hominins anymore, so what DO we call them? Help!

Maybe this will help. The latest info I was able to find on human/ape taxonomy indicates that the tribe Hominini comprises two subtribes, Australopithecina (the australopithecines, obviously) and Hominina (basically living and extinct humans--that is, anything of the genus Homo). So unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, this means that the term "hominin" still refers collectively to the australopithecines and members of Homo.

Yes, I meant "Hominina" and not "Himinina". The information presented in the articles is more up to date than what you are reading in your textbook. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Uther, the textbook I was referring to is the latest one I could find, the ninth edition of Humankind Emerging, published in August 2005. I know that there is some lag time between the writing and publishing of such books, but I still find it hard to believe that the nomenclature has so radically changed again just in the last year or two. Also, I'm not sure which articles you are referring to that are more up-to-date than this book. Can you direct me to a couple of the most recent scholarly articles on the subject? (If you can, you will save me some research drudgery that I'm perfectly capable of withstanding but that it would be nice to avoid. Also, others might be glad of the references.) Thanks. --kaineas —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.210.36.226 (talk • contribs) .

Did you read Hominini? Here's one that pushes everything down one level, with all of the apes in Hominidae: http://www.taxonomy.nl/Taxonomicon/TaxonTree.aspx?id=66255 - UtherSRG (talk) 23:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Please forgive the following childish outburst: AUGH! Okay, now that that's out of my system, yes, I have seen the Wiki entry on Hominini. It puts Pan into a different subtribe from all of the humans and australopithecines and the like. In the little "Genera" box, it clearly states that the human branch is Hominina and that this subtribe does not include chimps. Unfortunately, I needed a more (how shall I put it?) reputable source to go on, so that's why I asked for other sources. You then gave me the link for the Taxonomicon, which is great, and I thank you. BUT. When I click through the different links on the Taxonomicon and get the breakdown on subtribe Hominina, it lists Pan right there along WITH Homo and Australopithecus and Orrorin and all of those dudes. Take a look--compare Wiki's Hominina with the Taxonomicon's. They're different. So, which one is right? Now I don't feel that I can trust the Taxonomicon either. This is what comes of having a suspicious nature, I suppose. --kaineas

[edit] Article is incorrect

Uther, the only support you've offered for the idea that Hominini should include humans and chimps and all descendants of their common ancestor, is the Taxonomicon. But the Taxonomicon actually indicates that Hominini should include humans and gorillas and all descendants of their common ancestor. (http://www.taxonomy.nl/Taxonomicon/TaxonTree.aspx?id=109372). Meanwhile, we have an article published today in Science that states: "Bipedalism is a key human adaptation and a defining feature of the hominin clade." (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;319/5870/1662). A review of that article in the same issue says "The new study confirms that Orrorin walked upright - a defining characteristic of being a hominin, the primate group that includes humans and our ancestors but not other apes." (Ann Gibbons. 2008. Millenium ancestor gets its walking papers. Science 319:1599-1601. March 21). So either this wiki article is wrong and the Taxonomicon is right, or (as I expect) this wiki article is wrong and the Science articles are right, but either way this wiki article is wrong. (Cirbryn (talk) 17:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC))

Hi, Cirbryn. This is exactly what I was getting at--I would sooner trust the Taxonomicon and a very recent textbook than a Wiki entry that offers no substantiation. Are you planning to edit the article so that it's correct? kaineas 04:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaineas (talk • contribs)

[edit] Status of the genus Pan

The web page http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3744 says that, based on the comparisons of chimpanzee DNA with human DNA shows that humans and chimpanzees share 98 percent of their DNA. This may suggest that Hominina and Panina should be abandoned. In this case, Pan and Homo should be considered descendants of Sahelanthropus and Orrorin.

The web page http://www.physorg.com/news9211.html shows that humans and chimps diverged from their common ancesotor about 7 million years ago. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.194.116.63 (talk) 05:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] replies to all of the above

Textbooks never use the latest good information. It takes years for the best thoughts on these kinds of subjects to get into textbooks. Sometimes decades. Textbooks are *not* a good source of information. That said, I don't have full access to the Science Mag paper, so I can't tell if it lays out any cladistics regarding the various species it studies. If someone with access could report on that, that would be great. The New Scientist article is 5 years old. There have been several papers re-estimating the split time since then. The PhysOrg article is reporting on one of them.

There does not seem to be a clear taxonomy for the tribe Hominini. Perhaps the subtribes should be abandoned, perhaps they shouldn't. I admit to not being very pedantic when I first created the articles, so I don't know what it is that made me believe that that was the right thing to do. I think the best is to take a guess and keep our articles consistent along that singular guess, but to describe the other possibilities where appropriate. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] chimps

There are two species in the genus Pan. One is the Common Chimpanzee, the other is the Bonobo. Together, they are the chimpanzees. - UtherSRG (talk) 06:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think that's based on old ideas with respect to bonobo and a failure in common usage to distinguish between them and common chimpanzees; Pan is the more precise term. I'm pretty sure common usage has evolved; I'll look for some cites. I don't really care about all that but did you have any problem with my rewrite of the lead regarding the two genera in this tribe. The reference to two genera, Homo (incorrectly piped to "humans") and Pan and "their extinct ancestors" is incorrect. The tribe includes all of those two genera, only three species of which are extant and many of the extinct ones aren't' ancestors of the ones that are around today.--Doug.^{(talk • contribs)} 03:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know much about the extinct species, unfortunately. I stand by what I said about the two species of chimpanzees. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)