Talk:History of the Jews in the Philippines

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[edit] Why the title change to "Jewish Filipino"?

This is a historical entry. It makes no sense to title it with a religious-ethnic category that could be used to designate a group of people. I think it should revert back to "Jews in the Philippines," because that is what the article is about. Hmarcuse 18:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above poster. Also I would like to add that I think this article should not even exist. The Jews are in no way near a significant ethnic group in the Philippines, let alone a minority group! Having a page dedicated to Jews in the Philippines would be like having an article "Senegalese in Taiwan" or something as irrelevant as "Senegalese in Taiwan". Instead, more material should be added on articles concerning important Philippine ethnic groups such as the articles on the South Asians, Arabs, Japanese and Koreans - all significant ethnic groups.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.119.112 (talk) 14:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Acknowledgements

Thanks to Al-Andalus for the seminal article which almost a word-for-word copy of his discussion. --Jondel 07:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Al-Andalus. Nice job Jondel! Great article in such a short amount of time. :) --Noypi380 07:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Noypi--Jondel 07:53, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Marrano

Taken from: Talk:Stephenson:Neal:Cryptonomicon:30:the real Philippines. Randy pays no attention to it…(Alan Sinder) From the Quicksilver Metaweb.

Comments go here. - Sparky

Interesting... i didnt expect to find the secret of the Marrano exodus to the Philippines on the internet. but in this day and age, there are no secrets that cannot be kept, it seems... from what ive gathered, about 2000 of them are listed on a ship manifest to Manila. they were of course jewish by blood but christian by religion, and had much in belief akin to "Nestorian christianity". which is historically interesting since Nestorians were in the Philippines even before the arrival of Europeans. of those 2000, 3 were captured and sent to an auto-de-fe in Mexico City. the rest dispersed and went into hiding. a great majority of those marranos come from Galicia in Spain particularly from villages near Santiago de Compostella, where it is tradition that the body of James the brother of Jesus was buried. though unsubstantiated by written documents, i have come to believe that marranos from the north of Spain are the descendants of those early jewish christians who fled the destruction of Jerusalem. they settled in Galicia by way of southern France. but after 400+ years since their escape to the Philippines, it is difficult to determine the exact numbers of filipinos with jewish blood, but im quite sure it is considerable. with the incredible loss of life after the Philippine Revolution and the Philippine-American War immediately afterwards, many of the secret-holders were not able to pass information to the younger generations of filipinos. thus, a very small core of families possess the knowledge of their ancestry. which worked to the benefit of the secret-holders, as it seems a decision was made to go into hiding again. the Illustrados and the masonic Katipunan who fermented the Philippine Revolution were quite aware of who were in the Bloodline. Dr Jose Rizal, the Filipino who was martyred for writing "Noli Me Tangere" had many masonic symbols in his novels. the fact that the name of his main character (Crisostomo Ybarra) had a marrano last name proves his knowledge of the secret history of the Filipino Bloodline.

by Rosomar Santiago Villadiego - member of Liga Illustrado 2nd Circle, Insurecto Chapter "et in mizrach ego..." "...a time will come"

Excuse me, but I find what you wrote interesting, especially for improving the article, although secrets are a weird source of info. You mean that there are more Jews in the Philippines than just 500? Jews mixed with the local inhabitants? You claim that many Filipinos today are descendants of Jews? Is there a way of proving this? :) --Noypi380 07:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Given that according to genetic studies only 3.6% of all Filipinos posses Caucasoid admixture (most likely Spanish, but from other Caucasoid pools as well) it would be extremely unlikely for many Filipinos to have any Jewish ancestry unless it is from recent contribution (eg. Rob Schnieder whose father is a German Ashkenazi Jew and mother is a Filipina Amerasian).

Being that the percentage of Filipinos of partial Spanish ancestry is already such a dismal number compared to the total Filipino population, then the percentage of those whose Spanish ancestry is of possible Sephardic origin would be even worse. In the Philippines, the identified Euro-mestizo (mixed Spanish/Filipino, British/Filipino, etc) population hovers just over 1% of the total population, but when including even those who posses any degree of Caucasoid ancestry (who could not be classed as mestizo by class, culture, or appearance, and are classed are basically unmixed Filipinos) the percentage rises to 3.6%.

Assuming that the Caucasoid element responsible for those 3.6% came only from Spaniards, and then assuming that at the very most 3% of the Spaniards who made it to the Philippines were of Sephardic origin, and further assuming that all the Spaniards in the Philippines sired children (which wasn’t the case), and then assuming that those of possible Sephardic ancestry weren't transients (ie, they didn't establish themselves in the Philippines, as most other Spaniards and Mexicans didn't), then those Filipinos with possible Sephardic ancestry would be at the VERY MOST less than 0.01%, or 8,800 Filipinos from a population of 88 million.

Getting "less than 0.01%", after having used the greatest assumptions, is not too promising. If we're realistic about it, Filipinos with a possible Sephardic ancestry would be 1/10th of that 0.01% (ie. 0.001%, or 880 Filipinos). This would augment the Jewish population in the Philippines from the estimated 100-500 individuals to 980-1380 individuals (obviously not Jewish according to Halakha). Whatever the number (880 or 8,800 Filipinos), the extreme likelihood is that all of these people (who might possibly have Sephardic ancestry) would be within the Spanish-mestizo minority. Even like this, they'd still constitute a tiny minority within the Spanish-mestizo minority. If they numbered 880 people, they'd constitue less than 0.1% of the Spanish-mestizos; if they numbered 8,800 people they'd constitute less than 1% of the Spanish-mestizos. Al-Andalus 03:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC).

i would suppose if one wanted clinical scientific proof, there would have to be Y-chromosome tests on suspected sephardic-filipinos. i have heard that genealogical records are to be found for some families that verify the bloodline, but they are not made public. i would be very interested myself to see those results.

as for what can be found in books... well, the 2000 marranos escaping to manila, thats a fact ive read in a rare book that was about the jewish sephardic diaspora. the entry for the philippines was just a footnote and was about 5 sentences. with enough time and searching, perhaps i can find that book again. obviously though, there must be other sources besides that one. as for "my claim" that certain filipinos today are descended from those jews. well, common sense will suffice. who else would those 1,997 marranos intermarry with... after 400 years they have blended in, looks wise at least. on top of which these are sephardic jews who were olive skinned (they are middle eastern), not like ashkenazim who are white skinned.

the secret societies that existed and still exist in the philippines and their link to sephardic bloodlines is an even harder thing to prove. since writing their oral histories into books is counter-productive to the whole "secret society" idea. and what is written is in parables. but it is more than just the katipuneros. they were only the revolutionary arm. there is also the spiritual arm that was anti-catholic. and because anyone who spoke ill of roman catholicism was killed in those days, you can understand why there is no written word. even today, anyone publishing text that is anti-catholic would still be frowned upon, at least in PI. those institutions of the spiritual arm that are still existing would be the borneian church and its adherents (aglipayan etc...), the colorums, the rizalistas, the iglesia ni cristo. the political arm is the various masonic brotherhoods.

so what i am trying to say... how will proof be given over something that has been kept secret for so long? even things which arent secret are not believed by the general public. for example... (and this does not break from subject) ashkenazic jews have no "true" israelite blood. ashkenazim are the european, american, israeli jewry we know today. arthur koestler's book "13th tribe" points out that they are khazarian, which was a pagan barbarian nation that converted to judaism prior to the mongol invasions. they converted because of business/trade reasons, beneficial for trade to muslims and catholic nations alike. so, their whole contention today in the middle east is wrong. they claim that modern day israel is theirs because it belonged to their ancestors. when their ancestors are ironically caucasians from the caucasus mountains. and that is the biggest irony in history, hitler believed he was killing jews, but they were caucasians, literally. ive read some historians even go so far as to call ashkenazim as "imposter jews". all this information can be found even in the encylopedia brittanica, and yet (and this is my point) how many people know this secret? it is not in the mainstream, simply because of its implications for world politics. if the catholic church has power over masses and media, think of ashkenazic jews in american media.

so are secret societies a "wierd source" of info? yes, i agree completely. otherwise, i might have written a proper entry for this subject that is verifiable. but there are no other sources. at least, not publicly available at this moment in time. and in the past it was with good reason. as for the future... i for one am hoping these questions and answers are brought to light...

my... this has gotten long, and nearly off topic. as for me, i am one who is impatient in keeping secrets, but is too afraid, too complacent to do much else except post my confessions on a wikipedia discussion.

thanks for the interest and mabuhay...

Rosomar Santiago Villadiego

"a mute mouth is a prison for the one with a bright song on his lips..."

This is very, very interesting. That's good info, although Arthur Koestler js not really a historian, but a novelist, in the same way as Dan Brown I guess. I'll try to read up more on the stuff you said though, like Khazar. Once I get to the bottom of this, I'll see what can be added to the article. :) Thanks. --Noypi380 05:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)