Talk:HINDRAF

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Contents 1 Create HINDRAF Wiki'Talk'Page 2 Police Watch Malaysia & Hindu Rights Action Force redirection 3 See Also link & Category 4 Anonymous Vandal Modification 5 WikiProject Dravidian civilizations 6 Lock this article 7 I want to create a page on the phrase "makkal sakthi"

[edit] Create HINDRAF Wiki'Talk'Page

- Created HINDRAF WikiPage. Any disputes or Claims or dissatisfactions please discuss here first.

[edit] Police Watch Malaysia & Hindu Rights Action Force redirection

- Can't access the www.policewatchmalaysia.com site from within Malaysia as at 8.25pm 19 December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.4.244 (talk) 12:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC) - Ive created and re-directed the above mentioned wikipage as they are came from the same source of the main HINDRAF wikipage. This is to avoid confusion and to have a single source of solid article instead of multiple instance of information. Any debates feel free to post.--Killerserv^Talk 03:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

'When a group gather, a riot will follow'...

Is this an illogical assumption or can it be supported/ verified?? Perhaps, if all the various groups / parties can keep a cool head, the position will not deteriorate. Any sensible person can forsee the outcome when HINDRAF was going on a so - called peaceful rally despite a court order restraining them. If it was trully a peaceful walk to the British High Comm, it boggles the mind why all these talks of Tamils being ' decimated ', or ' ethnic cleansing' or being oppressed.

The question of poverty is not the monopoly of the Msian Tamils alone. From the various blogs put up by Msians, we can see n read the dissatisfaction with the distribution of the economic cake. We have seen that the Indians along with the Chinese n the Malays have benefitted....look at the list of the the wealthy, the owners driving their BMWs, Merce n other luxury cars ! One can see a discernible increase of Indian motorist s with the upmarket cars or the middle of the road models.

In fact looking at the professionals, be it accountants, bankers, lawyers, medical specialists, one can witness the rise of the Indians up the economic rungs. The problem in Malaysia is that the spread is not even. Who is to be blamed? Why focus the blame solely on UMNO. I'm not a fan or a member of the party but we have to be fair. You dont see the Chinese building or erecting a temple where n when they like but sad to say in Shah Alam, a few years ago, a guy came to the front of a friend's house n picked a spot to put his temple paraphenilia. Reason: He dreamed Lord Krishna had designated that spoyt for a temple. Can one blame the house owner's anger and act of pulling up those stuff?

Another problem: why involve or seek help from Tamil Naidu's Chief Minister n ask for intervention? Ar they Msian Tamils or Indian Tamils? Where are their loyalty?I read in the Spore papers last week that the Tamils here are strong contributors for the Tiger Tamils' cause n sent a lot of money to the state. Hey, they are not 'poor, underprivileged or oppressed' then. Where is their loyalty then? If the money iwaschanneled , spent n invested in Msia, perhaps their economoc condition will be much improved , tho it is a simplistic view. Remember the Malay proverb: "Susukankan beruk di hutan, anak dirumah kelaparan"...Is this what ails the Indians? They should look towards themselves on ways to overcome their poverty and social ills rather than blame others. Dont talk about the situation in the future being similar to Sri Langka. God forbids!!!

I have a few suggestions: 1. Do away with the Tamil schools if there is no demand from the marketplace. Or are the students sent to India where there is a demand?. If not, why prolong the agony by building more schools?. From the reports, some of these schools have low number of pupils. My question is why the poor academic achievement then? Ask any educationist...you can get very, very good or excellent results when a teacher can concentrate n track the kids' progress where the number is small, UNLESS the teachers themselves are too busy yacking away n get gaji buta only.

2. Do away with those Tamil films on TV which shows too much of the social ills or bad features of a typical Tamil....drunk, wife beaters, suicide prone when faced with problemd.....what kind of examples are this cultural traits? These are not the characteristics of good human beings, let alone Malaysians. . Is any civic n well reasoned Tamil going to blame the govt for such behaviour? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.224.254 (talk) 13:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

As a non-Muslim from Malaysia, all those stuff about Chinese and Indians having their share of the economic pie is not all that it's cut out to be. Indians and Chinese have to struggle against racist policies back when we were in school. "Positive discrimination" to benefit Malays have left out the other races in the cold. The only reason why there are some Indian and Chinese professionals who can drive lavish cars is because they struggled hard and worked their asses off for it. Not every poor person doesn't own a car, and not every successful person drives a big car. It's not a reliable barometer for economic well-being. Even as a professional, I'm only still driving a national car! Let's look at the education policies. Can you say sincerely that the government has been fair to all races? How hard is it for non-Malays to get a place in the universities, and how easy it is for Malays to be sneaked in past matriculation and directly into the first year of a degree course directly after SPM?

Malays would easily say that the private sector is dominated by non-Malays and we're making big bucks over there. Wrong again. Our hard-earned profits are being siphoned out in between to Malay middle-men who only make money by virtue of being Malays. We can't get government tenders unless our proposals are fronted by Malays. Not just government tenders, even projects for government-linked companies. Furthermore, this discrimination is spreading the the private sector.. Banks, MNCs, etc. Simply because of the discriminatory policies! Look at it, any new foreign multinational that intends to set up shop in Malaysia must have a Malay at the helm, must ensure that a certain percentage of the workforce are Malays, etc. They don't even have to EARN their right to be there, for crying out loud. Those of us who have been struggling for years trying to chalk up some impressive references in our resumes are still always rejected for good jobs in multi-nationals!!

Therefore, please don't say all this bullshit about non-Malays having our fair deal of making money in Malaysia. There is no fairness here for non-Malays, neither in the public nor the private sectors. And then, there is the open practice of discriminatory discounts for Malays. Houses are sold at between 7% to 15% cheaper for the Malays compared to the non-Malays. We already have to struggle harder to get higher-paying jobs than Malays, and we still have to pay more for a basic need too? And then there's the issue of overnight millionaires created by the government. How many Malays can you see that have had their plots of land bought over by the government at far above market value just to make overnight millionaires out of Malays? A "Felda Millionaire" is a household term over here. Ever seen any non-Malay getting this perk from the government?

The list goes on and on, and any non-Malay in Malaysia can point out the sort of shortchanging we're getting. Any non-Malay can tell you how we're living in a false harmony, a society of false tolerance. HINDRAF's rally and subsequent protests brought out these skeletons from the closet and out into the open. Directly, they're addressing the problems that affect ALL non-Malays in Malaysia, and not just the Hindus. The racist UMNO regime have shown time and again that they'll start with one race or group, and move on to the next. They've already put the chinese in their places with the numerous threats of May 13. They've already intimidated the Christians repeatedly with threats to dismantle churches, destroy Christian symbols in missionary schools. And now, they're putting the Indians in their places. All in the name of enforcing their Malay supremacy over all non-Malays.

This issue ain't only about HINDRAF fighting for Hindus. Writ large, it's about how the Malay ultra-nationalist government's discriminatory practices have favoured their race over all others, and benefited the Malays at our expense. It's about how the rest of us have contributed just as much (but historically more) than the Malays in building Malaysia, but got shafted repeatedly by racist Malay supremacists. It's about how our parents and us are born right here, true blue Malaysians, but are still treated (and even labeled!!) as "immigrants". Most Malays can't see all of these, so please try and mingle more with non-Malays from all walks of life and learn a thing or two about the OTHER Malaysia.. one that is boiling and seething with discontent.. one that is wishing to leave Malaysia at the very first opportunity and wish that the country implodes on its own under a racist incompetent government. --User:Rpf2019(talk)

i can surf to hindraf main website in KL using malaysian local broadband on 21st dec 2007 8.08 pm. hence please cancel the claim that the site is unsurfable, as this give an impression that the website has been blocked by the government. The neutrality of the article is disputed as it lacks the counterpoints from the government and the malay people. I am expecting to read "Indian ethnic cleansing in Malaysia" but where it is? Apparently left out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.206.17.97 (talk) 12:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See Also link & Category

Hi, whomever modifying the see also link & category, kindly do not change the link reference as they are based on the hindraf group structure and are very much relevant towards this article. please discuss at the talk page if you plan for a change or edit on those. Once again, do not remove them. --Killerserv^Talk 01:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anonymous Vandal Modification

Anonymous editors, please do not deface or change the article in massive way like changing the infobox, main contexts, category & etc. Please discuss on the talkpage before change please. As this could lead to neutrality confusion. Administrators have tagged the page to clean-up and future event update tag once article related to them placed. Once again please do not mass edit (vandal style). Please Discuss ! --Killerserv^Talk 08:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Massive changes are only to be expected when an article is in the news, and is poorly written. Please explain your reversion of sourced, relevant, neutral comment. Relata refero (talk) 08:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Relato dont post the picture on the main context ! you are messing the main wikipage instead please post the picture on the rally day section ! --Killerserv^Talk 08:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

According to the MoS, a picture next to the lead section is encouraged. I intend to modify the template used here to include the possibility of a picture, if that is your concern. There are other pictures in the rally section. This seems an appropriate one, demonstrating that HINDRAF claims to be non-violent and constitutional. Relata refero (talk) 08:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand. please post the picture on the rally day context itself instead of the main context section. Messing with the picture on the introduction section is very much awfully bad wikipage edit style. --Killerserv^Talk 09:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are two points to be made (i) outside Malaysia, the forum has only made headlines following the rally; thus the rally is important to its notability, and should be mentioned in the lead (ii) the image of the rally on the right of the lead looks OK to me, and I think it should stay there. Are you sure it isn't your settings that are making it look strange? I've just checked on another computer with different settings and it looks fine there too. Relata refero (talk) 09:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

If there are no follow-ups to the ISA detentions, or if there are no news updates in the coming weeks, the page should be finalized with verifiable links to news articles and locked. There have already been incidents of people from Malaysia (obviously Malays) vandalizing this entry by putting in derogatory remarks, and even deleting all the contents on the page.-User:Rpf2019 (talk) 15 December 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 14:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

This article appears to be severely biased. Government views and counterpoints to pro-Hidnraf opinions are not represented neutrally. The language is also very far from neutral. It is suggested editors read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#A_simple_formulation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial

One (but not limited to just this ) example of biasness within the article is.

False stories were engineered in the mass media, stating that the Hindus have damaged property in the Batu Caves Hindu temple[6], only to be refuted by the temple supervisor himself[7].

No support for 'false engineered story' can be found in these two links -- the 2 links comes from the same mass media source, The Star. If anything, the mass media in this instance have shown neutrality. The same is true in the next paragraph, again the Star showing considerable neutrality when reporting the affiliation of the criminals.

Another issue, why was Hindraf's accusation of 'ethnic cleansing" not mentioned -- was that statement purposely left out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.124.25 (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is extremely one-sided and hardly NPOV. Reading it for the first time, i thought someone had simply copied paragraphs from some Hindraf newsletter or website. I think the police were high-handed, and newspapers like the New Straits Times, over the next few days, were lacking neutrality, simply echoing government statements. However, the sheer bias of this article, especially in the 'Threat From The Government' section, is just as bad. Racism or not, both sides need their space. There is no space here for government and anti-HINDRAF opinions. Many of the statements passed off as fact are at best questionable. Sources are lacking and too selective. Much of it is a matter of opinion. This article, with its sweeping statements, is too seditious and partisan to be constructive. Compare Ketuanan Melayu, which though far from perfect, is generally comprehensive without being offensive. The best thing that can be done for this article is to flag it as non-NPOV until it is rewritten. To leave it as it is is to invite vandalism. Gliding (talk) 10:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I must agree. This article lacks neutrality; some statements sounded like commentaries given by anonymous editors. If the article is titled HINDRAF the organization, then it should deliver a profile about said organization - formation, origin, membership and a summary of the issues related, with reliable sources per Wikipedia policy. By letting the article go about making comments on who did this and who did that, this article may fail Wikipedia's neutrality stance. — Blue。 10:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Dravidian civilizations

Wiki Raja (talk) 03:34, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lock this article

I suggest that this article be put under {{semi-protected}} immediately and all unneutral statements "neutralized". Fanatix 15:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I want to create a page on the phrase "makkal sakthi"

What you guys think? Gangeticus (talk) 15:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)