Talk:Heroes of Azerbaijan

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Contents 1 Historical heros ?! 2 Babak 3 Does this article reference some form of officially designated award? 4 More 5 Babak again 5.1 Description of heroes 6 To Richfife

[edit] Historical heros ?!

Since Azerbaijan republic is a new country, that is difficult to consider separate historical heroes for that country! As an Iranian Azari(Azeri) , I can't separate the Iranian national heros from Azari ones : never in long history of Iran , there was a separate entity with the name of Azarbijan(Azerbaijan) state or nation . I can't figure out what will be the condition of so many Azari-Iranian heroes: Nezami , Sattar Khan ,Ismail I(Shāh Ismā'il) , Abbas I of Persia(Shah Abbas) , Javad Khan and hundreds of other Iranian/Azari heroes?!More than that , if we are going to count every person from the North West Iran , then why don't we count the Medes kings and heroes like Deioces(Diyako) and/or Cyrus the Great himself ?! (Cyrus the Great was median from the mother side) --Alborz Fallah 06:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• More than that , Babak was not Turkish language! How can it be possible to count him among the heroes of that new country ?! --Alborz Fallah 15:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Babak

For user:Azerbaijani - see Britannica online : "...leader Babak led a rebellion in Azerbaijan (now divided between Iran and Azerbaijan) that lasted from 816 until 837." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9045340/Khorram-dinan --Dacy69 02:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

How could Babak have been a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan? Do you realize what your saying here? Babak's base of operations was in Iranian Azerbaijan (I dont know who wrote that Britannica article, but they obviously knew nothing about the geography of the name Azerbaijan, a lot of sources have been affected by Soviet era propaganda [see the Greek-Macedonia issue, the Greeks have the same problem with FYROM that many Iranians have with the name Azerbaijan]). His castle is in Iranian Azerbaijan. In what way was he a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan? The territory that he and his followers raided was vast (even into Armenia and the regions south, east and west of Iranian Azerbaijan sometimes), but to say that he was a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan, first called so in 1918, is ludicrous.

The only Azerbaijan Babak ever had anything to do with was the Iranian region of Azerbaijan. Encyclopaedia Britannica in 1911 mentions that Azerbaijan is a region in Iran (not the Cacausus) and it also says that Babak fought in Azerbaijan. So if Babak fought in an Azerbaijan that was split up, why does Britannica 1911 not say this, but a source after 1918 (with the creation of the first Azerbaijan in the Caucasus) says it? How you can maintain that Azerbaijan was "split up" and that Babak was a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan is ridiculous.

I know there are pan Turkists and nationalists from the Republic of Azerbaijan who claim that Babak fought for the freedom of Azerbaijan from the Persians or Arabs or for Turkic independence or whatever and for all I know, this may be the stance that the government of Azerbaijan takes (I've read some pretty outrageous claims made by the Azeri government), but these delusions have no place in an encyclopedia. I dont know on what basis you can possibly maintain that Babak is a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan, but I'd sure like to hear it.

Also, I suggest you guys not make very single dispute on various articles about the name Azerbaijan, its getting tiring and its out of place. This debate is whether Babak was a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan or not, and so far, I have seen nothing that would suggest so, so please dont try to "prove" anything with regards to the name Azerbaijan as that wont get you anywhere in proving anything about Babak. The fact of the matter is that Babak was in no way a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan.Azerbaijani 03:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are you confusing yourself? No one ever mentioned the word Republic in connection with Babak. And why do you keep deleting the category Historical under which he's listed? --Zondi 04:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It says Heroes of Azerbaijan and the sections are called Soviet Azerbaijan and Modern, what are you talking about then if not the Republic of Azerbaijan? See the discussion on the History of Azerbaijan article, the Iranian region of Azerbaijan should not be bundled up with the Republic of Azerbaijan in any article. You can make a list of Heroes of Azerbaijan (the country), but leave Iranian Azerbaijan and Iranian people out of it, as they have nothing to do with the Republic of Azerbaijan. Wikipedia also has a policy against original research, and saying that Babak was a hero of Azerbaijan (the country) is completely original research. Furthermore, the Iranian region of Azerbaijan is part of Iran, so I still dont see how Babak can be put in this list.Azerbaijani 05:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I added some information from Britannica since Dacy brought it up. As long as its clear who Babak was, I have no problem with him being on the list, although the list is POV and OR (see below) and will probably eventually be removed from Wikipedia.Azerbaijani 13:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I added some more from Britannica to show that inclusion of Babak to this Azerbaijan-related page is not a mistake. --Zondi 17:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This issue is not about the name Azerbaijan and its geographical application.Azerbaijani 17:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Quote I suggest you guys not make very single dispute on various articles about the name Azerbaijan, its getting tiring and its out of place - Azerbaijani, indeed you have obsession on that and you go on every article with that name and make dispute. --Dacy69 17:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Your the one with the obsession, answer this question, was it not you who brought that subject here? Simple yes or no.Azerbaijani 17:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You first removed Babak name. And I don't dispute about his ethnic affiliation at all. In North America you can see names of Indian chieftains which has nothing to do with anglosaxon.--Dacy69 19:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about?Azerbaijani 19:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does this article reference some form of officially designated award?

Or is it the opinion of the editors that the people listed are heroes? This is an important question that needs to be answered. If this article is based on the opinion of its creators, it will have to be removed from Wikipedia. You can create it somewhere else, just not here. - Richfife 05:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Its all POV and OR, see the dispute above regarding Babak. You should probably put it up for deletion as you are a third party (I was going to but I decided not to for now, and since I'm not third party).Azerbaijani 13:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

OK then, if I don't get some evidence that this is an official award in the next day or two, I'm going to nominate the article for deletion as original research. - Richfife 18:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It is better to be answered by a creator of this page. But many people listed here (if you click names) are really got nomination as 'heroes'. As for an official award, some listed in section 'modern heroes' listed here, at the official site of Azeri govt. [1]There is bunch of lists in Wikipedia, like this List of sovereign states which also has many disputable names within. If we are about to delete such lists that one should be removed first.--Dacy69 20:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Then it sounds like the article should be reduced to only contain members of that list. By the way, "If article X is allowed to stay, then this one should too" arguments are very common, but never accepted lines of reasoning in Wikipedia. We're talking about this article, not any others. - Richfife 01:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The article lists personalities whom people of Azerbaijan consider heroes. There's a reference for Babak, and we need references for all other people in the list. Grandmaster 05:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Um... By the "people of Azerbaijan" do you mean every single solitary person in Azerbaijan? I can't imagine that they agree that uniformly. - Richfife 15:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

We cannot speak for every person. But Robin Hood is an English hero, and is considered as such by many people in England. We cannot speak for everyone, but I'm sure that he is a hero for many English people and maybe even Americans, Australians, etc. Grandmaster 05:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Then thats POV and OR. This is an encyclopaedia, not a place for what people think.Azerbaijani 13:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More

Two points. One, this is from American source, where they call Babak national hero of Azerbaijan: "Every year in the first week of July, on 'Babak Khorramdin Week' (the national hero of Azerbaijan), more than a million Azerbaijanis gather in Babak Castle to demand their rights and protest Islamic and Persian chauvinism in Iran.[2]

Two. Just like the List of Iranian National Heroes, this list is the list of people considered to be heroes by Azerbaijani people. People included in Iranian list do not provide references for each person on the list, let alone stating whether this is an officially designated award and whether each person on the list has received it. As you see, Heroes of Azerbaijan article is not any different from other accepted articles on Wikipedia. --Zondi 16:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

ABSOLUTELY AGREE. We can list historical figures who is considered in Azerbaijan as national heroes, e.g. Babek. Example you produced about Iranian national heroes is good one.--Dacy69 03:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I've withdrawn the nom for now, but... My google searches indicate that Babak is a controversial Iranian figure. It's not Wikipedia's place to declare him a hero when many people disagree. It's taking sides, which is a major no-no. - Richfife 16:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. In the meantime, if this site is about heroes of the Republic of Azerbaijan or considered by the Republic of Azerbaijan to be its national heroes, then we can list historical figures as well, provided that an editor will supply official list or official nomination from the Republic of Azerbaijan for historical figures as s/he did with nomination for modern and soviet heroes.--Dacy69 19:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The thing is that some historical figures are considered heroes in more than one country, and we do not take sides by stating that Babek is considered a hero in Azerbaijan. A person does not have to be an ethnic Azeri to be a hero in Azerbaijan. And it is ok if a certain person is listed as a hero for more than one country. People can check his biography by reading the respective wiki article. Grandmaster 04:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Babak again

Zondi, you keep adding this link: [3] as a source to support your claim that Babak is a verifiable hero of Azerbaijan. There are two major problems. First, Babak isn't even mentioned in the article. The only mention of him is in the comments at the bottom of the article. These comments can be added by anyone, anywhere. I could add something that says Millard Fillmore sneezed Azerbaijan out of his nose after eating some spicy curry to the comment list. It wouldn't make it true. Secondly, even if the article did say he was a Hero of Azerbaijan, it wouldn't be enough. Saying Babak is a national hero of a country is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. A single mention in one article isn't enough. Also, the Britannica article is just that: an article. It doesn't use the word "hero" at all. - Richfife 16:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We are talking about people who is regarded in Azerbaijan as hero. Babek is one of them. Azerbaijan made a movie about him Babek (film). There is disctrict and many buildings and establishemnets named after him in Azerbaijan. It is not extraordinary claim. We produced a source. please do not remove referenced info. [4] -This is Azeri website about heroes, outstanding persons of Azerbaijan. They listed Babek as well. --Dacy69 18:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thats POV and OR, against Wikipedia policy. Many people in Uzbekistan see Timur as a national hero, but that doesnt make him actually a national hero (there was no Uzbekistan in Timur's era). POV and OR is not acceptable in Wikipedia, Babak was in no way, shape, or form a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan. It doesnt matter how many things are named after him or how many movies are made about him, that doesnt make it fact.Azerbaijani 19:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We are not speaking about historical fact rather than perception. This page is not about historical facts, it is about national heroes of Azerbaijan honoured in Azerbaijan as such. Assumption might be based on myths, narratives, traditions, and finally some kind of official blessing.--Dacy69 19:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We are not speaking about historical fact rather than perception Thanks for confirming. Wikipedia has rules against perception.Azerbaijani 20:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Quote me untill end. It is not personal perception. It might be like Mythology - please see section [5] or look at [Hero]--Dacy69 21:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

LOL, how much longer is this going to continue? Even a third party editor disagrees with you...Also, I find it quite amusing how two sources are giving for Babak, yet neither of the sources say he was a hero of the Republic of Azerbaijan, thats called falsifying information.Azerbaijani 21:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a comment on the article itself, but one of the sources [6] was actually the opinion from a feedback user: Babek,Taymaz and others on Jun 18, 2003 03:53:07, said and I don't think feedback opinions are considered scholarly. I have no problem mentioning Babak, as heroe in both Iran and Azerbaijan. But users comment to a news report is not really encyclopedic.--alidoostzadeh 23:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, from the top. I'm going to put up these two AFDs for your perusal: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mother of the Nation and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Father of the Nation. These are two articles which contained lists of people that were considered either the mother or the father of their nation. They both were technically well referenced with news articles in which various people were called "The father of England", for instance. But, the term is too easily used. Any journalist can toss the term into an article to add emphasis, and they often do. One person was able to find 20 different people that had been called "the mother of Finland". The same problem applies to people being called a "Hero of Azerbaijan". It's too easy for someone to simply use the phrase in passing. For this article to work, their need to be good sized sources from large, respectable groups or publications that are dedicated very specifically to the idea that Babek (or whomever) is a "Hero of Azerbaijan". The articles need to be written for no other reason than to prove that point. Simply tossing off the phrase in the middle of a narrative isn't enough. No less a figure than Ronald Reagan referred to Oliver North as a hero of the United States. That's a reliable source, but if I created an article named "Heroes of the USA" and included Oliver North, I'd be laughed off of Wikipedia. Calling someone a hero to an entire nation is a serious business. You're speaking for every single citizen of that nation. Don't do it lightly. - Richfife 05:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. These users claiming that Babak and Javanshir are heroes of the Republic of Azerbaijan is like Turks claiming that Heraclius is a hero of Turkey or like Uzbekistan claiming Timur as its hero...it just doesnt make sense. A lot of this has to do with Soviet propaganda.Azerbaijani 13:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Richfife and Azerbaijani, this page should be about only those Azerbaijanis who have been awarded the Soviet-era awards or the present day awards, not what some Azerbaijanis think are national heroes. Richfife's example of Oliver North is a good one for this situation. Parsecboy 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I think Wiki should follow some standards and patterns. If other similar pages related to historical figures will be removed, then this section should also go.--Dacy69 19:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm already working on it: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Philippine_National_Heroes, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Iranian national heroes and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Armenian national heroes. They will be gone in a couple of days. - Richfife 19:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It would seem the discussion has settled. I'm going to go ahead and remove the section. - Richfife 16:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Description of heroes

I am adding description of Koroglu and remove a word 'Iranian' from Babak as even he had Persian father (which according to some sources) it is not Iranian (that term came later) and movement took place in Azerbaijan.--Dacy69 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It appears that all section will be gone, but the word "Iran" is more ancient than Babak .--Alborz Fallah 17:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It does not make Babak Iranian. It is not reasonable argument. Anyway, section is gone--Dacy69 20:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure it going to go , but with no doubt Babak was Iranian!why do you think he was not Iranian ?!--Alborz Fallah 20:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To Richfife

Good job on standardizing Wikipedia pages, Richfife. However, before we close this discussion, let me tell you: I didn’t think too highly of the curry remark that you allowed yourself above. Now that I know you a little better, I would say that wasn’t quite your level. And in the future, if our paths cross here again, I will expect that you observe common rules of respect. Other than that, it was a pleasure working with you and have a wonderful day. Zondi 19:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain how you found it offensive? I was just randomly typing some nonsense to make a point that anything whatsoever could have been added to the page. - Richfife 03:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, I felt that I had to go to way too much effort to make what was a fairly straightforward point here. This sort of thing is very frustrating. Please be more willing to step back and take a world wide view. - Richfife 03:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)