Talk:Helen Mirren

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Contents 1 Discussion 2 Odyssey Two 3 Getting her kit off 4 Hmmm 5 Info 6 Russian Name 7 place of birth 8 Early career 9 Royal Honors 10 WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment

[edit] Discussion

I assume that the change to the second sentence has been made for NPOV reasons. However, I would argue that Mirren's image is not a matter of opinion - she has always had a reputation for appearing in "sexy" films and has always been regarded as a "sexy" woman - indeed, her name is almost synonymous with these concepts. Her latest appearance, in "Calendar Girls", supports the statement that her image has not been affected by encroaching age. I would like to change that sentence back. Deb 17:35, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Odyssey Two

"She is particularly well-known for her roles as the female detective Jane Tennison in the Prime Suspect series of television dramas, and as the stern Soviet spaceship commander in the 1984 science fiction film 2010: Odyssey Two, based on the novel by Sir Arthur C. Clarke."

Fair enough she was in it, but i'm not sure that she's well-known for her role in 2010. I'd rate her performances in The Long Good Friday and The Cook, The Thief, His Wife & Her Lover as certainly more career-enhancing... Any problems with trimming the last bit of that sentence out, or at least changing it? Onebravemonkey

Thanks! Much better! --Onebravemonkey 07:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Getting her kit off

Someone tried to add a comment saying She has often appeared nude in movies, including "The Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover." It'd be almost easier to list the films where she didn't get her kit off. -- SteveCrook 17:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think some people would like to know that she often appears nude in movies and "The Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover" was a good example which shows her nude. There are many people who could'nt care less that she is a Dame, but would like to see her without clothes. horatio 72.14.70.193

But why that film as opposed to the many others? -- SteveCrook 02:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to pick one film as an example, than you have to pick a specific one. Do you have a better example? One in which she looks about the same age as she looks now? The point I wanted to say was that she often appears naked in movies. If someone looks her up on wikipedia they might want specific information like that. Unsigned entry by 72.14.70.193

I'd go for all or nothing. Either list all the films where she gets naked, or none of them. Listing just one implies that there was something special about the way she got naked in that one. If someone does look her up to find out where they can see her naked then it'd be better to list all of them. -- SteveCrook 11:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You seem to care alot about this entry so I concede to your wishes. This was the first time I ever changed anything on Wikipedia. It is cool to be so powerful. Will you put something there that says she is often nude in her movies? That way it will be done in a way you think appropriate. I will not post here again unless you ask something and you can delete any or all of my comments here if you wish. Take care. Unsigned entry by 72.14.70.193

I care a lot about accuracy and giving the right impression to someone reading the article. But I don't want to put you off contributing to the Wikipedia. I don't think it's right to specifically name The Cook... because she is no more naked in that one film than in many others. In fact there are others where she spends more screen time being naked, like her first feature film, Age of Consent. Most people that know Helen's work already know that she's never been bashful about appearing naked. She's joked about it in interviews. Why not just extend or change the section that currently says The "sexy" image she acquired in her youth has — in the opinion of some — been little affected by encroaching age; she did nothing to detract from it by appearing nude on the cover of the Radio Times for her fiftieth birthday. You could add to that or change it to say something about how she's never been shy of appearing naked, if the part called for it?

You should also sign all of you comments on talk pages like this one with four tilde characters like ~~~~. Comments on talk pages should never be removed because they are a record of the discussion. -- SteveCrook 02:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

on Conan Obrian she mentions she just won a award for her being a "naturalist" or nudist

[edit] Hmmm

I see a lot of discussion about the nudity vis a vis her movie roles, but it wasn't in the article - guessing there is/was a content dispute?

I did a reformatting of the article...mainly just arranging facts by subject. There was a minor bit of weasel speak ("some people think"....) that I removed. NickBurns 19:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info

This new article [1] has some interesting info on her ancestry, if anyone's interested in adding Mad Jack 05:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian Name

Being that the article concerns Ms.Mirren herself, not her family, shouldn't her Russian name be given in the feminine, ie. Mironova. I think. --Jquarry 03:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Technically, yes, but it seems to be the custom to Russian or other Slavic families born in (at least) English-speaking countries to not use the gender ending, for simplicity's sake. Daniel Case 07:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Similarly with Nordic or Icelandic people that have the "son" or "daughter" ending in their family names. Sally Magnusson, the daughter of Magnus Magnusson, should really be Sally Magnusdottir (or something similar) but the family appear to have fixed on Magnusson as a family name. -- SteveCrook 10:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This is utter nonsense. Where do you pick your facts from? Out of a hat - or worse: out of your you-know-what? THIS IS THE #1 FRAILTY OF WIKI: people who DO NOT KNOW but go on pretending to themselves - and others - THAT THEY DO.

As a native Russian I can tell, that it's VERY strange to read female name as "Mironov". For Russians it's absurd. If you write the original name, that was written in her passport it was: "Mironova". And then, why, for example, everyone writes "Raisa Gorbacheva" (wife of the Gorbachev), not the "Raisa Gorbachev" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisa_Gorbacheva). -- Jake7 15:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that's because she was a Russian who lived in Russia. If she had migrated to the USA or the UK, she would probably have become known as "Raisa Gorbachev". She was often referred to as "Mrs Gorbachev" anyway, not "Mrs Gorbacheva". Most English speakers do not know Russian naming conventions, and do not understand the concept of a wife taking her husband's surname but still spelling it differently from her husband's name. JackofOz 01:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I can find no source on the net that spells it with an a at the end. The other question seems to be whether to finish the spelling with an -off or an -ov. It was changed recently to -ov with an attached link that justifies this. Of the seven external links attached that mention this I found it split two for -ov and two for -off. I would just add that on last nights 60 Minutes interview Morley Safer clearly pronounced it -off. Now, Ms Mirren did not give us a pronunciation, but Mr Safer is an affable interviewer and I feel sure that if she had asked him to he would have said -ov, but it also may not have mattered to her. If this difference is simply a British v. American English thing then it clearly should stay -ov and, in any event, I am not actually proposing to change it. I am just posting this here as food for thought for any readers who may go through the same search process that I have and wonder what is happening here at wikipedia. MarnetteD | Talk 18:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It's real simple. It's spelled "ov" but pronounced "off". Transliterations, particularly into French (which English transliterations often followed) often elect to use the phonetic "off" rather than the literal "ov". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.236.60.11 (talk) 02:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

This is correct.

It's simple -- the rule is that you spell HER ACTUAL NAME as she/her parents/whoever ACTUALLY spell it. you don't "correct" someone's name, as given. it doesn't matter what the usual rule is for names in a certain language, or what the transliteration convention ought to be, or whatever. you look at her birth certificate, passport, or whatever info is publicly available, and you stick to that. see how easy it is? because Mirren is 3rd generation English, it really doesn't matter at all what Russian naming conventions are or how Russians usually choose to transliterate it. her name is what it is and you have to correct that. 71.183.146.149 10:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Thinking about this a little more, the birth name that's been reported, Ilyena Vasilievna Mironov, is definitely a bit odd. To russophiles, a female patronymic doesn't sit well with the male version of the surname. Where former Russians have kids in English-speaking countries, the usual options are: (a) make the endings agree (eg. Ilyena Vasilievna Mironova), or (b) give the child the male version of the surname, and exclude the patronymic entirely in favour of either a different middle name or no name at all (eg. Ilyena Jane Mironov, or just Ilyena Mironov). Option (b) is much more common in my experience.

For example, my ex-wife was born in Australia to Russian immigrants, and was registered with the first name Helen, no middle name, and the family surname in the German (!) transliteration that her parents chose when they came here. Within the Russian community, she's often called "Елена Анатолиевна" (with the patronymic derived from her father's name included, but that's purely social and entirely unofficial).

But that's not to say that other alternative namings don't exist, for whatever reason. Maybe Mirren's Dad wanted his name preserved in her patronymic but after all, he wasn't an immigrant and may not have known or cared much about Russian naming practices.

Also, I've often wondered about "Ilyena". It sounds close enough to the pronunciation of Елена to make me think that that's the name her parents had in mind but made an unorthodox transliteration of it. Normally, it would be rendered as Yelena or Elena, sometimes Elyena and even occasionally Yelyena. And she did become "Helen Mirren", not "Eileen Mirren". In any case, what we have is "Ilyena Vasilievna Mironov" which is presumably her legal name regardless of the spelling, and I can't see that we have any business changing it. -- JackofOz 03:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently watching an interview with Helen Mirren on the ABC TV show Enough Rope with Andrew Denton, who just asked her what her Russian name was. The transcripts are not yet up on http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/, but when they are her Russian name should be amended - she most certainly pronounced an 'a' (possibly even an 'na') at the end of Mironov, and her middle name was different. (Possibly something like 'Lidya', but I didn't quite catch it). Weltuntergang 11:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I also caught it, and I very clearly heard her say - twice - that her birth name was "Ilyena Lydia Mironovna". This is a different version than any we've had to date. There was no mention of any "Vasilievna". I really don't know what to make of it. She said Mironovna means "daughter of Mironov". On the one hand, Mironovna is not a standard Russian feminine ending of a surname. The wife or daughter of a Mr Mironov would be Ms/Mrs Mironova, not Mironovna. I suspect she's a little astray with her Russian, and her real birth name is that which appears in official documents, Mironov. Not even Mironova, let alone Mironovna. It's common in Russian households in Anglo countries, where the family surname has been changed, to refer to each other by what would have been the Russian form, but this is an informal cultural thing, and does not mean that these in-house names have any legal/official standing. I'm sure this applies to families of other non-English speaking backgrounds, too. The other point is just because a person says their original name was X does not always necessarily mean it was in fact X. -- JackofOz 13:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000545/bio) has her birth name as Illiana Lydia Petrovna Mironova. I'm not advocating either way, but it's interesting to note the variations from many sources. Also, the transcript of the Enough Rope interview mentioned above by Weltuntergang has now been uploaded, but it seems to have been victim to a transcriber with no understanding of Russian, as the following meaningless sentence is rendered: "HELEN MIRREN: Mironov, which means ‘Daughter of Mironov’." The transcriber seems to have accidentally standardised the Mironova that was presumably said. 122.104.106.166 (talk) 13:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

keep in mind that IMBD is not acceptable as a reference or source on wikipedia, per WP:RS. Anastrophe (talk) 17:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] place of birth

This article says she was born in Ilford whereas in most pages on the net Chiswick is said to be her place of birth.

It is stated quite clearly in her 60 Minutes interview that she was born in Southend-on-Sea and that she was raised in Leigh-on-Sea. The wikipedia pages for Ilford and Southend both list her as being one of the famous births from their locations. This maybe one of those confusing situations over town - city - suburb - county names that comes up from time to time and as I don't live in the UK I can't give you the specifics about this situation. I know that we had to reword the part about Essex a few months ago as the county line had changed over the years and where she was born isn't exactly in Essex anymore. The Chiswick citation seems less likely as it is in West London some distance away from any locations previously mentioned. This maybe a situation where incorrect information on the net has been repeated in so many places that it has taken on the appearance of fact (see my research, on his discussion page, on the fact that several websites claim that Trey Parker went to school in Fairplay, Colorado even though he lived more than 65 miles away from that community). I have to add that I don't know if that is what is going on here but I suspect that if might be part of it. I know that IMDb lists the city that you mention but if their info is wrong it will have spread all over the net and getting them to alter incorrect information can be difficult at times. Hopefully some UK wikipedian who knows these communities will read your posting and be able to clear up this situation. MarnetteD | Talk 17:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Leigh-on-Sea is almost a suburb of Southend-on-Sea and as Southend is much more famous, if you were from Leigh you might well say you were from Southend because not many people around the world would have heard of Leigh. Chiswick is in West London. Ilford is about 18 miles to the East. Ilford used to be in Essex but as London grew it became part of a London Borough. Southend-on-Sea is another 30 miles to the East from Ilford. With those distances between them and with the number of other, larger and more famous places between them all, that can't be explained by town - city - suburb - county names and it also can't be covered by saying you are from somewhere nearby which is better known. I think that only a birth certificate will be able to resolve this. -- SteveCrook 07:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Plugging Mironov and 1945 into Ancestry.co.uk's search engine [2] produces only one Mironov born that year which was in Essex. That seems to confirm that she was not born in Chiswick. I haven't signed-up for an account so I can't say if it was Ilford or South-end-on-Sea though. --DavidCane 04:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that is just damn impressive. Good research, DavidCane! I think it important to note about the earlier conversation that where she was born does not change. If she was born in Essex and the county or city borders have changed, it was Essex when she was born. If she was born in an area that is no longer part of Essex proper, we can make note of it, ie. "she was born on the border of what used to be Essex," or some such.Arcayne 17:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of changing this to in Ilford, Essex, now a part of Greater London. I wiki'd the school name, and it should be noted that it is located in Westcliffe-on-Sea (which is adjacent to Southend, and probably a part of greater Southend - if there is such a place). DCE should also be under personal, or awards - not really film. cheers Kbthompson 13:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early career

The article seems kind of mixed up on her early career. I'm not sure if you could say she was a "star at the Old Vic" - her performance (with the NYT, therefore amateur) in Anthony and Cleopatra was her significant early work at the RSC, right? Amo 06:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Honors

In the article, there has been a bit or debate on whether Helen Mirren originally declined a CBE before accepting a DBE later. I'm all for inclusion if we can find citable sources for this. I also think the article would be a bit more interesting if there was a story behind it. She seems to have progressed past her anti-monarchial upbringing to where she seems to support and even identify with the Royals (as per her Oscar speech and surrounding interviews). What's everyone else think?Arcayne 19:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that it would be so interesting to have a story behind this so called decline of Damehood. But we definately need to source it and add a citation. I will look on BBC or maybe from a broad sheet. I'll see what I can find. Eagle Owl 20:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

CBS News from 2003 quotes a Sunday Times list. Kbthompson 20:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

...and This is an example of how WP editors can work well together. :) (I had been having some doubts with regards to editors in other articles). Outstanding work, everyone. Drinks are on me.Arcayne 00:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

You can buy the beers next time we're all up at the Grand Canyon, or you can pull me out of the mechanically transmitted excrement ... Good luck. Kbthompson 00:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The following debate is relevant to this topic. It has been going on between Arcayne and JackofOz, but I've now transferred it to here:

It might be better to explain that in the body of the article rather than just using the tag. People will see her title, and thing either the titling or tag are incorrect. Describing the declining of the Honour might bridge the gap and explain matters better. Maybe you can find a place to add when she has declined title, with a citation. That would be awesome. Arcayne 08:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Arcayne. The reference to her declining a CBE in 1996 has been in the article all along. She was also invested as a Dame Commander of the British Empire on 5 December 2003. In 1996 she had declined a CBE. I didn't insert that information, but I have no reason to doubt it so I'm prepared to take it on trust. The editor who removed her from the list of people who have declined British honours must have thought, she's now a Dame so how could she have declined an honour? The answer is that she declined a CBE in 1996, but accepted a later DBE. Different honours. I have no issue with the way the article is now. Cheers. JackofOz 10:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate you getting back to me in a timely fashion, Jack. Regarding the Helen Mirren investiture. I think it prudent to reference within the article the process by which she refused one investiture for a lower ranking, but later accepted a higher one (I didn't even know that was or could be done). I don't think we can include her in a category that defines her without including a summary or whatnot of the original declination (and maybe reasons, which might make for noteworthiness) and the subsequent acceptance. You seem like a reasonable enough fellow, and I think that if you still genuinely disagree with me on this, there might be others who disagree as well. We can remove the category listing and discuss it on the Discussion page until some concensus is reached.Arcayne 19:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. One thing to understand is that there is no "process", as you put it. A large number of people have been offered honours but declined them, for whatever reason. Some of these people have later accepted an honour. Regardless of that acceptance, they are still people who have, at some time in their lives, declined an honour. List of people who have declined a British honour shows more than 20 people who have declined at one time but accepted at another time (I'm sure it isn't exhaustive. Such details are only infrequently released, being essentially a private matter between the nominee and the Crown, until such time as they are accepted and officially announced to the media). The list includes at least one person (Vanessa Redgrave) who accepted one honour and later declined another. The British honours system is not unified in the sense that I think you understand it. There are various awards, various orders of knighthood, and sundry other honours, none of which is connected to any other except by being part of the overall set of awards that are made to various people at various times for various reasons. Some are made in the Queen's name but on the recommendation of the British government (and some other governments in the Commonwealth make similar recommendations) - and she has no choice but to approve them. Others (such as the Royal Victorian Order) are in her personal gift, to be awarded on her volition as she sees fit, and the government has no say. The only awards that are connected to others are things like the various levels of orders such as the Order of the British Empire. One might be awarded a Membership (MBE), then later a Commandership (CBE), and even still later a Knighthood (KBE). A person could theoretically refuse an MBE, hoping to be later offered a KBE. Their chances might be somwhat diminished by the initial refusal, but that's the risk they take. Or they could refuse a KBE but later accept the entirely unrelated Order of Merit, or the Companion of Honour - or accept a KBE but decline an OM or CH. There are so many possible permutations of circumstances, that we couldn't possibly cover them all. I still think Mirren's article is fine as it stands. But I'm always open for debate about these sorts of things. Cheers. JackofOz 02:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I actually had no real opinion on the matter, aside from citing the earlier declination of honour.

I am guessing it is not usual to port over conversations from individual User Talk Pages to article Discussion pages, but I am thinking that it didn't need to happen in this case. The matter wasn't really all that hotly debated, and the user-to-user conversation was more for my own personal clarification and edification. This doesn't seem the place for it.

So, I think the matter is done, as long as there is a citation for Mirren's earlier refusal of Royal Honour.Arcayne 05:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

A citation seems to be there now, so that's that. (I thought you had asked me to continue this discussion here rather than beween ourselves. Maybe I misinterpreted your message.) JackofOz 06:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for my lack of clarity. If there had been more back and forth about it from other users, it might have been well to post the summaried points between us, leaving the individual posts to people interested enough in following them. No harm no foul. You're aces with me, JackofOz. Nice work on providing the cite. :) Arcayne 12:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As the Queen might say, Noblesse oblige. (However, someone else came up with the citation, not me.) Cheers. JackofOz 03:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)