Talk:Hasekura Tsunenaga/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Changed Shogun to name 2 Basis of "the Samurai"? 3 Not the first embassy 4 Changed account of death 5 Faxecura Rocuyemon 5.1 Sotelo quotes 6 separation 7 Mme de Saint-Troppez 8 Recent edit 8.1 Translating new images 9 Minor corrections 10 Timeline 11 Featured Candidate? 12 Year links 13 Comment

Changed Shogun to name

I just changed Shogun Hideyoshi to Taiko Hideyoshi. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was not Shogun because he was of peasant birth. Instead, the Emperor appointed him Kwampaku, which is the highest a peasant could go. To become Shogun, descendance from the four semi-regal Shogunal families was required.

After Toyotomi Hideyoshi abdicated his seat of Kwampaku in favor of his son, Hideyori, he recieved the title of Taiko. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.202.213.102 (talk • contribs).

Basis of "the Samurai"?

Was this the basis for "The Samurai" by Endo Shusaku? This seems pretty much the same as the plot of that book, without all the Christian stuff. Adam Bishop 21:25, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Endo Shusaku's novel was based on this event. The book makes interesting reading, but is not so factual. PHG 21:37, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not the first embassy

-I just noticed that it says on the wikipedia front page that Hasekura Tsunenaga was part of the first japanese embassy to Europe. This is definitely not true (it's not mentined in the article, however). I know there was four japanece "princes" who went to europe, met the king of Spain and the pope already in 1584. The princes names were Mâncio Ito, M. Chijawa Seiyemon, J. Nakaura and M. Hara. I remember these from Linschoten's Itinerario, and I have seen their mention in a japanese biographical encyclopedia. Regards, S. W. Aarsbog SWA 16:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, truely, these four were the first Japanese visitors to Europe, selected by the Jesuit Alessandro Valignano to build up the local clergy (they were ordained Jesuits afterwards). However, the first official embassy sent by a Japanese ruler was indeed that of Tsunenaga. These four deserve an article as well though. Regards.PHG 14:33, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(It's me from above again, I made an account.)

Yes, I understand what you are saying here. However, I believe that a daimyo would be a quite prominent 'japanese ruler', capable of sending an "official embassy". And that was the background for the princes' coming to europe; they were sent with the blessing of daimyo Oda Nobunaga. I am very certain that these princes were the first official emmisaries to Europe - and that there had been japanese visitors to Europe even before Mâncio Ito, M. Chijawa Seiyemon, J. Nakaura and M. Hara came to Europe. But as you say, these four princes really do deserve an article by they own; since this place is better fit for constructive criticism of the article on Hasekura Tsunenaga. Again, regards. SWA 16:18, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Changed account of death

I changed the account of his death. There are too many varying reports on Hasekura's last years to favor one over the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.223.78.31 (talk • contribs).

Faxecura Rocuyemon

I would love to write an article on Hasekura for the Latin wikipedia. But to do that, I could really use some sources. Could anyone tell me:

1. What "17th century European book" Image:Faxicura.jpg came from.
2. Where I could find a transcription or more legible image of Image:HasekuraRomanCitizenship.jpg, which as it stands is very difficult to read.
3. The same for Image:PopeToDateMasamune.jpg, which is IMPOSSIBLE to read.
4. Any other bibliographical leads on Latin sources taht discuss Haskura and his embassy.

Thanks! --Iustinus 17:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi.1. I do not have the exact reference of the book at this point, although several seem to have been published, and this one, I think, was printed in Germany. 2.Hasekura's citizenship image it quite readable in many part (if you take your time). It is visible in Sendai, one day I'll try to go there, but I do not know of a better photograph at this point. 3.The letter from the Pope is also in Sendai, but I do not know of a better reproduction available on Internet as well. Regards.PHG 21:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, Image:HasekuraAmati.jpg is clearly a higher quality scan of an illustration of the same family as Image:Faxicura.jpg. Too bad this one is in Italian instead of Latin! --Iustinus 16:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that this page has made translation of the week, it would be the perfect time to write a Latin version of this article. Indeed, user:Muke has already started one at la:Faxecura Rocuyemon. But to do the subject justice it would really be a good idea to read up on contemporary sources which were written in Latin. So far the only one I can find online is Luis Sotelo's de ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio (see especially the first page.)

Can anyone help me find more sources? PHG, has anything changed regarding the questions I asked above?

Thanks, Iustinus 19:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, nothing new on my side. Thanks for the links to Sotelo's book (I didn't known he had written books!). Are you planning to translate in English the main passages related to Hasekura? Best regards. PHG 22:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

My initial impression is that there are relatively few references to him, and that they are short. But that is a good idea. If the passages are either short or interesting, I'll translate them eventually. --Iustinus 00:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Sotelo quotes

OK, here are the two references to Hasekura I was immediately able to find in Sotelo's book. The first one is on the first page, and the second one is listed in the index, so these were quite easy to find. As I don't currently have time to read the whole book through, it may be a while before I can add more. Note that when writing in Latin the usual style is to use very long complicated sentences, which don't always translate clearly. So I apologize if anything is confusing: I tried my best to keep it clear, but fear I did not always succeed.

Nempe fuisse me quondam Idate Masamune, qui regni Oxu (quod est in Orientali Iaponiæ parte) gubernacula tenet, nec dum quidem per baptismum regenerato, sed tamen Catechumeno, & qui Christianam fidem in suo regno prædicari cupiebat, simul cum alio suæ Curiæ optimate Philippo Francisco Faxecura Retuyemon [sic] ad Romanam Curiam & qui tunc Apostolicæ sedis culmen tenebat SS. Papam Paulum V. qui ad cœlos evolavit, Legatum expeditum. Quo tandem cum anno Salutis 1615. iuvante deo pervenissemus, à SS. Papa magno cum Cardinalium Sacri Collegij Antistitum ac Nobilium concursu, nec non & Rom. populi ingenti lætitia & communi alacritate non modo benignè excepti, verùm & humanissimè tam nos quam etiã tres alij, quos Iaponii Christiani, quatenus eorum circa Christianam Religionem statum Apostolicis auribus intimarent, specialiter destinaverant, auditi, recreati, & prout optabamus, quantocyus expediti. (p. 1)

"Namely that I was formerly dispatched as ambassador of Idate Masamune, who holds the reins of the kingdom of Oxu (which is in the Eastern part of Japan), who, while he has not yet been reborn through baptism, he has been catechized, and was desiring that the Christian faith should be preached in his kingdom, together with another noble of his Court, Philippus Franciscus Faxecura Rocuyemon, to the Roman Senate & to the one who at that time was in charge of the Apostolic See, His Holiness Pope Paul V, who has since gone to heaven. When we got there by the aid of God in the Year of Our Salvation 1615, not only were we kindly received by His Holiness the great Pope, with the Holy College of the Cardinals and a gathering of bishops and nobles, and even the joy and general happiness of the Roman People, but we and three others (whom the Japanese Christians had specially designated to announce their condition with respect to the Christian religion) were heard, rested, and just as we were hoping, dispatched as quickly as possible."

Collega alter legatus Philippus Fiaxecura [sic] postquam ad prædictum Regem suum pervenit, ab ipso valdè est honoratus, & in proprium statum missus, ut tam longâ viâ fessus reficeretur, ubi uxorem, filios, domesticos cum multis aliis vasallis Christianos effecit, aliisque nobilibus hominibus consanguineis & propinquis suasit ut fidem reciperent; quam utique receperunt. Dum in his & aliis piis operibus exerceretur ante annum completum post eius regressum magna cum omnium ædificatione & exemplo, multa cum præparatione suis filiis hæreditate præcipua fidei propagationem in suo statu, & Religiosorum in eo regno pretectionem commendatam relinquens, pie defunctus est. De cuius discessu Rex & omnes Nobiles valdè doluerunt, præcipuè tamen Christiani & Religiosi, qui huius viri virtutem & fidei Zelum optimè noverant. Ab ipsis Religiosis, qui eidem sacramenta ministrarunt, eiusque obitui interfuerant; & ab aliis sic per literas accepi. (p. 16)

"My other colleague, the ambassador Philippus Faxecura, after he reached his aforementioned king, was greatly honored by him, and sent to his own estate, to rest after such a long and tiring journey, where he made his wife, children, servants, and many other vassals into Christians, and advised other nobles who were his kith and kin to accept the faith, which they indeed did. While he was engaged in these and other pious works, a full year after his return, having provided much instruction and a great example, with much preparation, he piously passed on, leaving for his children by a special inheritance the propagation of the faith in his estate, and the protection of the religious in that kingdom. The King and all the nobles were greatly saddened by his passing, but especially the Christians and Religious, who new very well the virtue and religious zeal of this man. This is what I heard by letters from very Religious who administered the sacraments to him, and who had been present at his death, as well as from others."

I must confess that I am not entirely certain about the sentence on the "special inheritance", as the Latin is quite knotty. That is the best grammatical solution I was able to come up with in which the translation makes sense ;)

So what do you think of these quotes? Not exactly as interesting as I had hoped, myself, but still possibly relevant. --Iustinus 19:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I am uncertain how to translate religiosi in the second passage. According to Religious (Catholicism) it's just "Religious"... but I don't recall ever hearing that word used as a noun, even in writings about the Catholic Church, and it sounds kind of awkward. Maybe a Catholic Wikipedian can set me straight on this? --Iustinus 19:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

This is great! Thank you! Actually, I am quite surprised with the second paragraph which in substance claims Hasekura came back to Japan as a heroe and a propagator of the faith. Sotelo was not in Japan at that time, and he may have romanced the return of Hasekura. Regards. PHG 21:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

That was my assumption: Sotelo is hardly a neutral source, and I'm sure both the Japanese and the Europeans idealized the man according to their own standards.

I'm glad you liked the quotes. I have always been impressed by this article, so I'm honored to have my work included (even if that is a silly think to say on a wiki ;) ). I'll keep an eye out for further quotes. I think I may have found one recently that didn't mentione Hasekura by name, but seemed to be about him. I haven't had time to translate it yet. --Iustinus 22:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

PHG- your recent additions especially cast into doubt Sotelo's version of the story, wouldn't you say? It might be a good idea to point this out, or at least to mention the inconsistency. --Iustinus 17:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Iustinus. Thanks. I added a short comment. Best regards. PHG 22:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

separation

How do you think, "Spanish Approaches" are not directly relevant to his own life. I assume it is better to separate this section and extend it including other relationship between Spain and Japan during this period. --Aphaea* 09:50, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Mme de Saint-Troppez

Hello, I am from the French Wikipédia project, and I am traducing this article in French language. I suppose that this paragraph

    "They never touch food with their fingers, but instead use two small sticks that they hold with three fingers".
    "They blow their noses in soft silky papers the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they throw them on the ground  
     after usage, and they were delighted to see our people around them precipitate themselves to pick them up".
    "Their swords cut so well that they can cut a soft paper just by putting it on the edge and by blowing on it."
    ("Relations of Mme de St Troppez", October 1615, Bibliotheque Inguimbertine, Carpentras). 

was originally written in French, and as a double translation French>English>French is not a good idea, I wonder if someone has the orginal text somewhere? Thanks, Ash_Crow 13:09, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Extraits du texte d'origine:

"Il y huit jours qu'il passa a St Troppez un grand seigneur Indien, nomme Don Felipe Fransceco Faxicura, Ambassadeur vers le Pape, de la part de Idate Massamuni Roy de Woxu au Jappon, feudataire du grand Roy du Japon et de Meaco. Il avoit plus de trente personnes a sa suite, et entre autre, sept autres pages tous fort bien vetus et tous camuz, en sorte qu'ilz sembloyent presque tous freres. Ils avaient trois fregates fort lestes, lesuqelles portoient tout son attirail. Ils ont la teste rase, execpte une petite bordure sur le derrier faisant une flotte de cheveux sur la cime de la teste retroussee, et nouee a la Chinoise...."

"...Ilz se mouchent dans des mouchoirs de papier de soye de Chine, de la grandeur de la main a peu prez, et ne se servent jamais deux fois d'un mouchoir, de sorte que toutes les fois qu'ilz ne mouchoyent, ils jestoyent leurs papiers par terre, et avoyent le plaisir de les voir ramasser a ceux de deca qui les alloyent voir, ou il y avoit grande presse du peuple qui s'entre batoit pour un ramasser principallement de ceux de l'Ambassadeur qui estoyent hystoriez par les bordz, comme les plus riches poulletz des dames de la Cour. Ils en portient quantite dans leur seign, et ils ont apporte provision suffisante pour ce long voyage, qu'ilz sont venus faire du deca...."

"... Le ses epees et dagues sont faictes en fasson de simmetterre tres peu courbe, et de moyenne longueur et sont sy fort tranchantz que y mettant un feuillet de papier et soufflant ilz couppent le papier, et encore de leur papier quy est beaucoup plus deslie que le notre et est faict de soye sur lesquels ils escrivent avec un pinceau."

"... Quand ilz mangeoient ils ne touchent jamais leur chair sinon avec deux petits batons qu'ils tiennent avec trois doigts."

L'ortographe est d'origine, sauf, desole, pour les accents. Au plaisir PHG 13:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Recent edit

PHG: I've just undone a couple of your changes. Since you generally do such a good job of maintaining this page, I figure any disagreement I have with you needs to be explained ;)

1. You changed "aftermath" back to "aftermaths", reverting a correction I made a while back. In my idiolect, "aftermath" is pretty much only used in the singular. I was wondering if maybe this was an Americanism (afterall, we Americans say "math" whereas almost everyone else says "maths"), so I checked the OED. Well, the OED doesn't firmly state that I am right, but every single example of the word that it lists has it in the singular. Do you disagree with me on this point? (And are you a native speaker of English?)
2. You changed the date in "Sotelo, writing years later, in 1634" to 1624. I'm not sure why you did this. The book's official publication date is listed on the title page as 1634. And in any case, 1624 would not be "years later."

If you feel I have erred in correcting you, please explain here. --Iustinus 16:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Iustinus. Thanks for the comments (and for your interest for this page!). I couldn't find a definite answer to "Aftermath vs Aftermaths" either. Google has a significant number of hits for "Aftermaths" though (but much lower than the singular form). I am clearly not an authority on English, so please go ahead with what you think is best.

Regarding Sotelo, he was executed in 1624, and wrote his account just a few days (my source says the day before) he was executed. To your point, the text in that case should says something like "two years later".

By the way, I finally managed to go to Sendai this week and I found a rather clear copy of Hasekura's act of citizenship ... in Latin (coming soon, enjoy!). Best regards. PHG 21:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so then Sotelo's book (or at least the edition now available) was published well posthumously. Interesting. In that case, we probably should remove the reference to the time frame entirely: I (or you, I can't remember now) only brought it up because it seemed doubtful he had had any good information at that point, but I guess we were wrong.

As for "aftermath", here's how it works in my mind: "Hasekura and Sotelo never lived to see the aftermath of their actions" but "Jesus, Hasekura, and DeSaussure never lived to see the aftermaths of their actions." I.e. "aftermaths" pretty much only occurs (for me) if there is no connection between the various actions. BTW, I don't see a babel template on your userpage: what is your native language if not English?

And last of all: YAY!!!! I can't wait to see your picture(s)! --Iustinus 23:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

My native language is French, but I've been living in Japan for most of the last 20 years. You're right on Sotelo: it seems he wrote the account during the time he was in Omura's jail in Nagasaki (2 years) before being burned at the stake. So, although he probably embellished the account, it may have some grounding in real fact. I still think the quote is greatly informative though, I wouldn't take it away. The new image of the Roman citizenship is now online. Cheers.PHG 00:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah! I speak a bit of French. I'd say I'm rather good, actually, but as I haven't used it for composition in years, it tends to look attrocious when I try to write in it. Anyway, I didn't mean we should remove the quote, just that there was no longer any need to specify when he wrote it. But you have already edited that satisfactorily anyway. I have printed out the new image of the citizenship document, and will likely be looking at it later today. Once I get going on that, I'll start transcribing and translating it on the image page, and you can add a quote or two to this article if you think it's relevant. You also, I see, got a better image of the Latin letter. I would love to transcribe that, and this image is by far the best one I've seen, but now it's about as legible as the old citizenship picture was, and that was too frustrating for me to read. I have one or two more minor corrections to your English that I would like to make, but I don't have time right now, so hopefully I can do that tomorrow. --Iustinus 18:39, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Iustinus. I understand your frustration on the Latin letter to the Pope. I took what I thought would be a good photograph in the Sendai Museum, but it came out blurred. I'll see what I can do, but it might take 1 or 2 years before I go to Sendai again now. I am really looking forward to your Latin translations! Regards. PHG 22:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Translating new images

I've finally put in a translation of the letter of Date Masamune to the Pope, from Gonoi. The title is not included in the translation though. Here is the photograph. Can you make it out? Here is where I am at this point: "MAGNI ET UNIVERSALIS SSQ3 (??)
Totus Orbis Domini Patris Pape Paulis podes cum profunda sumnuss (?) a reucrentia(?)
osculando y Date Masamune in Imperio Japonico Rex Voxy supliciter dicimus"

OK, Here's what it says:

MAGNI ET UNIVERSALIS S^ISQ3 (S^ISQ3 = Sanctissimique)

totius Orbis Patris Domini Pape Pauli s. pedes cum profunda summiss^e et reuerentia (s. prob. = sanctos, summiss^e prob. = summissione)

osculando ydate masamune * Imperio Japonico Rex voxu suppliciter dicimus. (I can't read whatever the * represents)

"In kissing the Great and Universal, Most Holy Lord of The Entire World, Pope Paul's holy feet in profound submission and reverence,

I, Idate Masamune *, King of Wôshû in(?) the Empire of Japan, suppliantly say..."

There are a couple words where I'm debating what the best English translation should be (e.g. nobody says "suppliantly," even though it's in the dictionary, but I can't think of a better word), but other than that, the translation should be accurate.

I wonder if I could reconstruct the Latin of the rest of the letter by comparing Gonoi's translation to what I can see of the text ;) Probably a possibility, but likely too much work to do anytime soon. --Iustinus 07:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, this is impressive. I wonder where you learnt to decipher ancient Latin manuscripts. I've put the text in the body of the article. I'm glad I made the Sendai trip :) Best regards PHG 08:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Latin is something I just gobble up. Anyway, I have completed a draft transcription of the citizenship document, and made a cursory effort to transcribe the first line of the main text of the Masamune letter. Check the image pages for the work I've done so far. I haven't made any translation efforts yet, but I shoudl be able to do that with the citizenship document soon... it would be nice to figure out the patches marked with question marks fist though. --06:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I've started translated the citizenship document. You'll probably want to wait until I get more done before quoting it, but given your interest in the subject, I thought you might enjoy seeing what I've done so far. --Iustinus 16:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation done. Well, at least the first draft. I'd still like to go over it for errors (and let other people, especially ones who know Latin, take a look at it) before we do anything with it, but why don't you take a look at it now? I admit, I'm not sure how much it would add to the article to quote it, but I'll leave that decision to you. --Iustinus 07:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This is great, and at least shows the amount of official praise that was lavished in this embassy. I think there is a mistype on the date at the end of the text: you write 1613, but I can see MDCXV on the document. Can you confirm? Does it mean the date from the foundation of Rome is mistaken? It's nice to work with so knowledgeable contributors. Would you happen to also know Greek? I happen to have a big unresolved mystery with Image:AsokaKandahar.jpg. Regards PHG 10:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Argh, the date is indeed mistaken. This is frustrating both because it confuses people about my footnote, and because, well I noticed that mistake last night, and apparently forgot to fix it. As for the Greek, while I do know it, I am nowhere near as good at it as I am with Latin. That said, I posess a published transcription, translation, and annotation of that very inscription somewhere around here. If I have time over the next coupe days I'll help you with this (if not, you will probably have to wait until early July). --Iustinus 14:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Minor corrections

I just made some minor corrections to the English of the article, in a number of places. I just wanted to point out a few things:

1. "Malversation" does exist in English, but is a very rare word (I had honestly never heard it before seeing it in this article).
2. "Interdiction" is also very rare in English, but for some reason it sounds correct to me in this article. Thus, I left it in, but I just wanted you to be aware for future reference that you should probably avoid it.

On a totally different note, I see that in the Spanish source, Masamune's name is spelled Joate. Given that other period sources spell his name Idate, is it possible that that o is actually a d? The J could also actually be an I, but that isn't necessary: since J and I are essentially still stylistic varients of the same letter in this period, Jdate (not to be confused with JDate ;) ) is a definite possibility. --Iustinus 15:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Timeline

PHG, you wrote:

• November 23th, 1615: Reception of certificates of Honorary Citizenship by Hasekura Tsunenaga and four other Japanese members of the mission.

Do you have a reference for this date? Because of course the certificate itself gives a date of XII Kal. Dec., which is November 20th (There is the possibility that I'm reading that X wrong, but the II looks clear, and VII would be November 25.) Now it is of course entirely credible that the resolution was passed, or the certificate was drawn up on the 20th, but it wasn't presented on the 23rd, but I wanted to make sure this wasn't a simple mistake (like my writing 1613 on the transcription ;) )

By the way, the certificate sure looks like an inscription, and it seems to refer to one in the text. Is it possible the certificate was an official copy (or perhaps an official draft) of a public inscription? --Iustinus 00:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Justinus. The source for the date is a catalogue of the Sendai Museum. Regarding an inscription, I haven't found any reference to one. Regards. PHG 02:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. Like I said, just wanted to make sure that was based on somethign other than the certificate.0

I'm thinking "The senate decided with the unanimous consent of all, to refer this wish and sentiment to public leters, by means of the same Holy Senate's scribes, for eternal memory" sounds like it could refer to an inscription. Well, except for the "scribes." Perhaps it was just a public flyer or something. But it does strike me as sounding like an inscription, and the certificate is written in an inscriptional font: compare it to the writing we have seen on other contemporary documents in this article.

BTW, I did put up a transcription of the Kandahar Inscription for you, but haven't had time to write up a translation yet. --Iustinus 05:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. This is great. I am really looking forward to the translation! Regards PHG 00:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Glad to be of service, but I am unlikely to have the time to write up the translation until some time after the fifth (I am out of town right now). Those inscriptions are indeed very interesting. --Iustinus 16:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured Candidate?

This ought to be a featured article candidate, it's very good! 195.137.85.17 00:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Year links

What the heck... what's the point of removing the year links? --Iustinus 21:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment

• noob writes:

I agree. This is less a biographical sketch and more a investigation into the Japanese embassy to Spain and the fallout. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.15.228.196 (talk • contribs).