Talk:Gluten
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[edit] Gluten toxicity and "Gluten-Free" foods
This section is a mess, makes little sense and makes claims that the references don't back up. I'm refering mainly to the "indicating a selective evolution for toxic motifs" section. The references in the Lancet and JI are nothing more than interesting observations that are taken out of context in this article.
Finally, gluten is not "toxic" per se, intolerance to it is the result of an autoimmune response, not any direct effect of the gluten protiens on the gut. Kantokano 15:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Origins?
working at the Pike Place Market today a customer came by and asked if wheat in Europe contains gluten, I answered it did but after his next comment I had to take to the wiki. This man had been told that wheat has been cross-polinated with tumbleweeds during the depression. Can anyone shine any light on this for me, and is there any validity to his statement?
Feb 26, 2007
American wheat and tumbleweeds are Not exactly cross pollinated according to Texan author and historian C.F Eckhardt, but they do have a history together. You can read about it in the following link (look under tumbleweeds): http://www.texasescapes.com/CFEckhardt/Aliens-Amongst-Us.htm[1]Wellesradio 03:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)Wellesradio
[edit] History & Extraction
The two sections overlap. I find nothing in "Extraction" that is not already said in "History." There the stated activities of the Bhuddist Monks apparently are suppostitious; I can find no reliable authority as support. Does anyone object to removing "History" completely and adding its scanty verifiable content to the "Extraction" section? Wugo 02:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Since no one has objected, I am moving the scanty informational content of "History" to "Extraction" and eliminating "History." I have been unable to verify the story of the inventive monks.
Wugo 20:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Allergies and intolerances
To some extent the article conflates allergy and intolerance ... I'm certainly no medical person, but I believe there is an important distinction to be made regarding the body's allergic response (histamines, and so on) and the immune response of the celiac.
- Scrafford
I agree... an allergy is a specific response (raised histamine levels) to the allergic agent. Coeliac disease is not an allergic response to Gluten and I propose this article is edited accordingly. CustardJack
Done. As far as I know, what people call "allergy to gluten" is really celiac disease, which most definately is not an allergy. I've fixed this now. Also, I'm pretty sure spelt is fine for people with celiac disease - the page on spelt seems to think so. I changed the last line in the article to reflect this, but it'd be great if an MD could weigh in on the subject. --Eirinn 09:40, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The page on spelt is wrong as far as I know. I'm gluten intollerant and have always been told that spelt is off limits. Just my two cents
From looking around on the net it appears that spelt (and kamut) are bad for people with celiac disease (but not as bad as ordinary wheat it seems). I've updated the page to reflect this. --Eirinn 02:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Terminology problems
From Coeliac disease:
- Maize (corn), sorghum, and rice are considered safe for a patient to consume. They contain types of gluten that do not trigger the disease.
This contradicts this article, which states:
- No gluten is contained in rice (even glutinous rice), wild rice, maize (corn), millets, buckwheat, quinoa, or amaranth.
It appears the word gluten is being used in two different ways.
The applicable definition given in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
- 3. The nitrogenous part of the flour of wheat or other grain, which remains behind as a viscid substance when the starch is removed by kneading the flour in a current of water.
Further to this, the American Heritage Dictionary (which is known for using corpus linguistics and combining prescriptive and descriptive elements) gives the following definition:
- A mixture of plant proteins occurring in cereal grains, chiefly corn and wheat, used as an adhesive and as a flour substitute.
This article defines gluten as "composed of the proteins gliadin and glutenin". This is a definition which appears from my research to be a common one among food scientists and celiac patients, but it is not the usual dictionary definition. I can find many cases of the broader definition in present use; for example, there are agricultural by-products called "corn gluten meal" and "rice gluten meal" which are used as animal feed. Also, the OED notes a historical precedent:
- 1876 HARLEY Mat. Med. (ed. 6) 371 Oats contain a larger proportion of gluten than any of the other cereals in use.
Comments? --Dforest 16:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
- Don't forget corn gluten as herbicide! There is clearly a distinction between the modern scientific meaning of "gluten" as spelled out in the article and what's been loosely called gluten in the past ("the stuff that makes dough sticky" back to the 18th century) and the recent present ("corn gluten"). This article very much should mention the different use of the terms, as the confusion leads to incorrect conclusions (for example, is corn gluten bad for celiac patients? No, not at all -- people avoiding gluten can eat all the corn tortillas they want, like I did yesterday for lunch.) But thanks for raising this question; I'm fairly new at the gluten-avoidance game, and myself was puzzled by the other uses of "gluten". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:27, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
--- inconsistency between this page and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-free_diet regarding whether kamut is or is not gluten-free (i.e. acceptable in a gluten-free diet). I have no idea what the truth might be.
visitor - Scott Carter
Kamut is wheat, and thus has gluten. However, for some reason, it appears to be suitable for people with non-celiac gluten sensitivity. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Factually incorrect, medical misinformation
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- "Some varieties of wheat, including kamut and spelt, naturally have low contents of gluten.[12] The gluten in spelt is more fragile than that found in ordinary wheat, so dough made with it collapses when overkneaded.[13] Many gluten sensitive people can tolerate these varieties, but those with coeliac disease should avoid all food containing wheat derivatives.[citation needed]"
In fact, people with GSE who are CD- should avoid all Triticeae glutens, no matter the source, it is unclear whethere people with idiopathic gluten sensitivities should avoid rye and barley, and people with wheat-allergy-sensitive rheumatoid arthritis may be able to avoid exascerbating disease eating rye bread. The last sentence should be deleted.
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- "Rice (even the so-called glutinous rice) contains no gluten, nor do wild rice, maize (corn), millet, sorghum, buckwheat, quinoa, or amaranth. (the latter three being broad-leaf grains, and not true cereals).[citation needed] Oats and teff have no native gluten, but are sometimes contaminated by milling with equipment also used for wheat or other cereals."
There is no debate, this is incorrect, the current popular definition has no place in encyclopedia that strives for accuracy. Glutens are the seed storage proteins in plants. There are four groups:albumins, globulins, prolamins and glutelins. Each group is composed of many members. Oats have prolamins just as wheat and the dominant prolamins in oats are similar to the omega-glaidin component of wheat.Pdeitiker 02:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC) The issue of definitions was taken from a chemical point of veiw and not all points of veiw, this confusion is cleared up below.Pdeitiker
- Pdeitiker, I am removing your requests for citations because the statements are sufficiently supported by the internal links within the sentences in question.
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- No they are not, review the literature on glutens and then correct these errors.
- It would be most helpful to have a concise list of the errors you've discovered.
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- Fact, it is incorrect, in fact dangerous to encourage people who have gluten sensitivity to eat Triticeae glutens until the cause of that sensitivity has been determined. Not all gluten sensitivity can be defined by celiac disease, celiac disease is a specific clinical definition which involves the capability of the clinician as well as the disease advancement of the patient. It is the equivilent of encouraging people with a family history of lung cancer to smoke. Companies have been threatened with lawsuits for exactly such statements. This misinformation needs to be nipped in the bud, so to speak.
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Fact the seed storage proteins have been defined and are not limited to either grasses, cereals or the grass tribe Triticeae. This is a common misconception. Any seed that contains albumin, globulin, prolamins or' glutelins contains gluten.On review the glutens referred to outside of wheat are the sticky or prolamin like proteins,this appears to be a central consistency in all definitions, based on the meaning of the word . In keeping with some level of consistency albumins and globulins should only be treated as essential components when they sufficiently copurify with gluten.Pdeitiker Basically glutens are dormant proteins in seeds that reactivate when hydrated by water and cause a seed to sproat.In principle they have nothing to do with bread or beer making.In principle it is the sticky proteins that give gluten its name so . . . . .
- You've quoted paragraphs but not singled out your reasons for objecting to their content.
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The whole paragraph is in error. If references cannot provided, then by wiki standards it should be deleted.The references you have provided are not from scientific journals and I can assure you I can provide scientific journal references that discuss the glutens from most of the mention examples that 'contain no gluten'. If this is such a difficult problem for you to repair I can replace the entire section. {cn} replaced. The problem has been fixed by placing appropriate items under appropriate definitions that support them. Pdeitiker
- Do you, for example, maintain glutelins are found in grains other than those from the grass-related plants?
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- Logical error. The statement does not say glutelins, and a gluten is made up of any of 4 classed of proteins. Glutelins and prolamins are an abitrary subdivison of a single class of proteins. In some species of Triticeae the homologous proteins are alcohol soluble.
Pdeitiker, you are not signing your comments so I'm not certain which is yours. And interspersing them with mine makes the reading difficult. Let's do this systematically, one problem at a time. First the citations. You seem familiar with the subject, so you should add the ones you think are best. Please go ahead and do it, there's no reason why you shouldn't. Once that's done, we should talk about the gluten definitions. (I'm assuming you're the author of that section of this Discussion.) Wugo 23:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Definitions of Gluten
20. Brown, A., Understanding Food Principles and Preparation, Second Ed., Wadsworth/Thomson Learning, Belmont, CA, pp. 402-403 and 420-421, 2004.
Meaning of the Term "Gluten". There is no single definition of the term "gluten". [From the US government]
[edit] Strict Definition
The term "gluten" refers to a specific complex of proteins that forms when wheat flour is mixed with a liquid and physically manipulated, such as in the kneading of a bread. [Source US government] The complex is composed of all four classes of 'glutens' but the structural components are made up of prolamins and glutelins, and in fact with prolamins three distinct classes of proteins, alpha, gamma and omega gliadins- contributed by different genomes (AA,BB and DD) make up the largest group. Note a page on gluten (wheat) already exists. Protein extracts include over 200 proteins with similarity to other proteins in many other plants.
"Technically", rye nor barley contain gluten. For example rye requires an additional step, acidification, to activate its glutens, and barley cannot for bread because of the low level or protein. So that the technical definition is of little use unless you are discussing bread making.
[edit] Medical definition
Gluten in one context of medical treatment is an artefact of gluten sensitivity in the subclass of coeliac disease. It pertains to, in the order of significance, wheat, rye and barley. This type of gluten is specifically defined on the wiki page Triticeae glutens already exists and makes clear its definition. As it just so happens the three cereals with poisonous glutens fit nicely into a predefined taxa. The immunochemistry is defined on Gluten_sensitivity#HLA_class_II_restrictions of gluten sensitive enteropathy (which includes coeliac disease) is also defined.
Note: the medical definiton of gluten is only as precise as the immunochemistry. If tomorrow a new food grass appeared in Bromeae or Aveneae that had similarly toxic glutens the medical definition would be extended to cover those new CD causing glutens. Alternatively if it was shown the barley (pure) was free of toxic glutens it would be removed (over a decade of ranchorous discussion). What defines purity- serological approaches and thorough feild inspections. What defines reactivity- other than ambiguous biopsy results, T-cell assays and immunochemistry.
Note:Allergies to wheat albumins and globulins are also considered gluten allergies even though these allergies extend, often, over broad taxa. The medical definition of gluten is for clinical application of treatment, the Gluten-Free diet. A gluten-free diet that is strictly gluten-free (by the strinct definition) can contain rye and barley, therefore the strict is not being used.
[edit] Similarity (Structural) Definition
Glutens are defined by genetic relationships (Homologs) within plant phyla, which extends over the common seed producing plants, but especially cereal grasses. These definitions are in wide use in the literature. These definitions are largely based on the components of glutens within seeds of plants, most of which evolved from common ancestral seeds. For example the gamma gliadins in wheat are ancestral to omega and alpha gliadins. Though by definition none would be recognized as glutens, strictly, or gliadins in that ancestral species. In fact the prolamins contributed by aegilops tauschii strangulatum as a result of introgression into wheat (8000 years ago) are not recognized as terminologically as gliadins. but as A. tauschii prolamins and glutelins, none the less they are identical to that wheat subset.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/fr070123.html
Although, strictly speaking, "gluten" pertains only to wheat proteins, this term is frequently used to refer to the combination of prolamin and glutelin proteins naturally occurring in other grains, including those that have not been demonstrated to cause harmful effects in individuals with celiac disease (e.g., "corn gluten" and "rice gluten)
This definition is not restricted to both glutelin, prolamin but also includes albumins and globulins as cofactors. Gluten amylase is responsible for converting starch to sugar that allows a better rise, although amylase is now supplimented.
J Sci Food Agric. 1967 Sep;18(9):405-9. J Anim Sci. 1973 Dec;37(6):1351-5. J Anim Sci. 1974 Aug;39(2):335-7. Q J Med. 1978 Jan;47(185):101-110. J Chromatogr. 1983 Jan 21;255:219-38. J Mass Spectrom. 1998 Oct;33(10):1023-8. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2007 Mar;71(3):694-703.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/alrgn.html Finding 8.The safety assessment-based approach is a viable approach to establish a threshold for gluten using currently available LOAEL data for celiac disease. An overall uncertainty factor should be estimated from the data and applied to the LOAEL to establish a threshold for gluten. Any threshold derived from this approach should be reevaluated as new research data become available. Available data are insufficient at the current time to use this approach to establish a threshold for oat gluten for those individuals with celiac disease who are also sensitive to oats. However, it is likely that a threshold based on wheat gluten would be protective for individuals susceptible to oat gluten.
When one uses the word [grain] gluten it is implicit that these are discussing the seed storage proteins (comparable to [wheat] gluten) of that plant.
Therefore if you want to discuss gluten in any of the various context it should be defined first. The error in this page from the beginning is that it does not define what specific gluten documentation it is refering to, so that we assume it is the general role. What the page should be is a calving of the definitions with appropriate links and scraping off the misinformation (such as, without references, the immunochemistry of oat avenins, spelt or kamut gliadins)
[edit] Another terminology problem
Re: "Wheat flour with a high gluten content is called "strong" flour, and is used for breads, whereas flour with a lower gluten content is called "soft" flour, and is used for cakes."
I have lived across Canada and high-gluten-content wheat has always been called "hard" not "strong".
I have editted as such.
Is Gluten suitable for vegans?
[edit] Pet food recalls
Should we put some info about the pet food recalls here? It appears that wheat gluten is the culprit, with either aminopterin or melamine being the specific agent found on the wheat gluten. --zandperl 13:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- An encyclopedia deals in facts, not news. Pointing out gluten and the suspect chemicals should wait until the connection is officially confoirmed. At this time the limited findings from necropsies suggest some other factor is the culprit. Wugo 20:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Gliadin and Glutenin
As the Gluten article now stands, a reader might assume gliadin and glutenin are the names of two single proteins. In fact, both names encompass classes of proteins, grouped together because they have properties in common. I think discussing this complexity is beyond the scope of an encyclopedia, so have not attempted it. If outvoted, I will accept the task. {Note: The "Further Reading" section includes sufficient data for the purpose.)Wugo 02:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Gluten is a mixture of the proteins gliadin and glutenin. These exist, conjoined with starch, in the endosperms of some grass-related grains, notably wheat, rye, and barley. Gliadin and glutenin comprise about 80% of the protein contained in wheat seed.
- The proteins in rye are called secalins, not gliadin, the proteins in barley are called hordeins not gliadin.
- To read more accurately it should say:
- Wheat gluten is a mixture of the proteins gliadin and glutenin cojoined in starch within the seed's endosperm. Both gliadin and glutenin are composed of many protein isoforms and thus comprise a complex mixture of proteins.[1] Similar glutens, secalins and hordeins, also exist in the cultivated grains of rye and barley, respectively. (See also: Triticeae glutens).
- (Optional) Oats also have a forms of gluten, avenin, that is similar to certain wheat gluten components.
- Gliadin and glutenin comprise about 80% of the protein contained in wheat seed.[citation needed]
- Pdeitiker 15:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Assessment
I have assessed the article to a B level for the WikiProject Food and drink. Overall it is a decent article but certainly needs some work and expansion to bring it to the next level. Here are some suggestions that you should consider before submitting it for GA status.
- Expand all single line paragraphs or combine them with other paragraphs where they fit
- Avoid phrases such as "so called" which is used in the lead paragraph, such phrases lean toward bias
- Under "Extraction" the use of the word Legend is not an appropriate word usage, it should be rephrased.
- Work on grammar in the article, some parts could be written better for ease of understanding
- I hope I have corrected some of this.Pdeitiker 15:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Are there non-food uses for gluten?
- Gluten is used in school paste and gluten hydrolysates are used in cosmetics. Gluten is also used as an agent in the making of soaps and other personal hygeine products. This is already covered in Triticeae glutens. Pdeitiker 15:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Organize the usage section a little bit, perhaps using smaller headings to deal with certain baking topics, the section seems a little jumbled this is partly due to the usage of many single sentence paragraphs and the list incorporated into the center of the section.
- Under occurrence the phrase "wheat and closely related cereals like rye and barley" should not be a full link, and as the link goes to an article that is unrelated to any of the specific words, perhaps the phrase in the linked article needs to be worked into this article to make the link make sense to those who do not understand gluten or cereals.
- This has been repaired. Pdeitiker 15:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- I believe you could expand upon the actual "extraction" process under that heading.
- The lead could be expanded a bit further to include a summary of everything in the article, this may help get rid of the lingering single sentence paragraphs.
--Christopher Tanner, CCC 22:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Christopher- Thank you for the rating and, expecially, for your commentary. I shall begin incorporating your suggestions. I used Legend because the story is frequently repeated, with no source ever cited. I haven't been able to validate it either, but I don't doubt the story. Wugo 01:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Non-food products with gluten
Elmer's finger paints. Traditional wheat pastes (often used in schools) Traditional soaps (See Korres Wheat Soaps) It is not uncommon for moisturizing creams and soaps to contain gluten [2] www.celiac.com lists the following as possibly containing gluten Lotions, creams and cosmetics (primarily for those with dermatitis herpetaformis). Stamps, envelopes or other gummed labels. Toothpaste and mouthwash.Pdeitiker 16:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
List of gluten containing products not for consumptionUser:Pdeitiker 17:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Further reading
I reformatted the refs as per WP:REFS using the citation template hoping to make a more readable layout. I am not sure it is any better. Triwbe 13:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pruning Proposal
This article is intended to be part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink and should be kept within that scope. Gluten pathologies have been extensively discussed in a series of articles listed in Gluten sensitivity and should only briefly mentioned in this one. Unless someone disagrees, I shall substantially reduce this article's discussion of celiac disease and other sensitivities. Wugo 04:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC) See Coeliac disease.
- Second notice. The pruning will begin shortly. First I will unite and reorganize the sections titled "Occurence" and "Glutinous Cereals". Objections and suggestions, please.Wugo (talk) 04:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I have greatly reduced the Adverse Reactions section. If you think I've gone too far, please review the Gluten sensitivity articles then restore as you see fit. Wugo (talk) 01:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Gluten in ice cream
(Discussion moved here from User talk:Socrates2008#Gluten in ice cream)
Hello, Socrates- I'm trying to find a supporting reference for use of gluten as a stabilizer. Do you know one? I found a list of other uses at http://www.iwga.net/04_app.htm but no stabilizing.
Still looking, Wugo (talk) 01:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, I found lots of references, but not a reliable one yet - will keep looking too. Socrates2008 (Talk) 07:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The reference you supplied does not support the statement. It gives me an idea though: Let's look up lists of foods prohibited to celiac patients; they should include foods with gluten added. Wugo (talk) 14:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Bingo! Read the Beware List at http://www.celiacsyndrome.com/index.php?id=14 Wugo (talk) 18:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure I that agree with your summary that the reference does not support the statement about gluten as a stablizer in ice cream. The author states: "Even foods not thought of as baked products, like ice cream and catsup, often contain small amounts of gluten or wheat flour added as thickeners or stabilizers."
- Prohibited foods is a good idea, but bear in mind that people with gluten intolerances might read this - i.e. you don't want to publish incomplete info that might cause someone to eat the wrong thing. Socrates2008 (Talk) 22:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
