Talk:Fruitarianism
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[edit] Three suggestions for criticisms
There are three additional criticisms of the fruitarian worldview I can offer: 1) Modern agriculture is a form of mutualism between plants and humans, just as is seed dispersal by eating fruit, so eating any part of the plant should be acceptable on that basis (and the same goes for meat, especially from factory farms, if we are appealing to mutualism). 2) Plants are not sentient, so worrying about hurting them is just plain silly. 3) Much of the logic here seems to be appealing to what's natural, which anyone who isn't clueless about ethics knows to be appeal to nature or the naturalistic fallacy. I haven't got any references for these, and I'm doubtful anyone has ever bothered to refute this nonsense in print, but they might have. Sorry if I'm offending any fruitarians here... maybe I'm just not 'holistic' enough, whatever that's supposed to mean. Richard001 (talk) 22:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Makes no sense
I'm removing a sentence: "Others believe they should eat only plants that spread seeds when the plant is eaten." If anyone knows what the author is actually trying to say here, please feel free to add an appropriate sentence. DanTheShrew (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] B12 again
I have just removed this text;
However, according to the Vegan Society of the United Kingdom, B12 is available from plant sources (though not in high quantities)[1]. This is also evidenced by tha fact that there are products labelled as 'vegan' that contain vitamin B12, such as some brands of "soya milk". Other organisations, more respected than U.S. organisations, have also proved the U.S. National Institute of Health's claims to be false.
Everything after the cite is original research. The bit before the cite is contradicted by the source cited, which says, in part, "The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements." and "B12 is the only vitamin that is not recognised as being reliably supplied from a varied wholefood, plant-based diet with plenty of fruit and vegetables, together with exposure to sun." and "...some vegans to suggest that B12 was an issue requiring no special attention, or even an elaborate hoax. Others have proposed specific foods...as suitable non-animal sources of B12. Such claims have not stood the test of time." and "In over 60 years of vegan experimentation only B12 fortified foods and B12 supplements have proven themselves as reliable sources of B12..." etc. If there is anything in the source even suggesting that "B12 is available from plant sources", I was unable to find it. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 16:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Biosphere 2-diet
It should be noted in the article that the biosphere 2 diet was also a fruitarian-type diet, composed of home-produced fruit and legumes. Add in article KVDP (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have a reliable source for that? - Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] B12 is not in yeast
As you can see here- http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c2203.html yeast does not contain B12. I'm removing the part of this article that says that B12 is in yeast. Also, being an aspiring fruitarian myself, I must say that this article is very biased. This is all based on FDA claims about the importance of certain nutrients (i.e., B12, protein, etc) and since the FDA has an entire Wikipedia article focused on their criticism, I think that it is unfair to use just their claims. There are many, many arguments in the support of fruitarianism for its health benefits. If I find some that would be adequate for use in this article, should I implement them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.40.148.174 (talk) 19:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yeast - This was poorly worded. I think the original editor was probably referring to "nutritional yeast" which is usually fortified with B-12.
- If you wish to argue that B-12, protein, etc. are not necessary nutrients, I would refer you to those articles. The statements about their importance can be sourced to the nutritional agencies of various governments and universities and large, reputable vegan and vegetarian groups. Currently, B-12 is sourced to the National Institutes of Health and protein to the American Dietetic Association. I don't actually see the FDA being used. (B-12, for instance, was just discussed (again) above, per the Vegan Society of the United Kingdom.)
- If you find arguments in support of fruitarianism that you can cite to reliable sources, by all means add them. If they're sourced to self-published sources, blogs and forums, don't bother.
- Mdsummermsw (talk) 20:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Avocado
I've removed the argument that avocado is a good source of protein. First, it was not sourced to a reliable source directly relating the discussion to the topic.
Second, avocados are not good protein sources. In addition to being incomplete protein, there is far to much fat. One medium avocado has 18g fat and ~4g protein.[1] to reach the 46-56g protein recommended daily (see Protein_in_nutrition#Dietary_requirements) that's 11.5-14 avocados, which is 207 to 242 grams of fat (against recommendations of under 65 to under 80 grams daily). More to the point, the article lists nuts as a good source. 100 grams of soy nuts provide 40g protein and 22g fat.[2] So 46-56g protein from soy nuts brings less than 31g fat. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 14:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please revert your removal. I agree that there is much fat in it, but it is one of the only fruitarian protein source and its also one of the only source you can grow (eg in self-sufficiency food systems).
- KVDP (talk) 07:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Links removed
Please reinclude following links:
This as they conatin much information about how to become a fruitarian and how the diet is composed (no info is available in article on this yet.
KVDP (talk) 07:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please take them to dmoz. This article has frequently become a linkfarm. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Article problems
This article is often used to make extraordinary claims. Frequently, these are "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;" or "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons. This is especially true of claims whose proponents consider that there is a conspiracy to silence them." WP:REDFLAG Some material has been taken from unreliable sources (self-published websites, forums, blogs, etc., see WP:RS). Some material has been drawn from sources that say nothing about the subject directly (such as the claim that a well-known artist/scientist was a fruitarian because his journal does not mention any foods other than fruits and pasta). This is synthesis WP:SYN and/or original research: "Even with well-sourced material, however, if you use it out of context or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source you are also engaged in original research" Wikipedia:OR#Reliable_sources Fruitarianism is a fringe theory, it presents "ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view". Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Identifying_fringe_theories This is shown by frequent claims that humans are "meant" to eat only "fruit" (various definitions are used), humans are "meant" to eat only raw foods, vitamin B12 is not necessary, dietary intake of B12 is not necessary, various fruits produce B12, protein is toxic, etc. Surprisingly, there are a few reliable sources that mention fruitarianism. I'm going to add them in to give some solid basis for this article existing. The size of this article, however, is not supported by the highly limited coverage the topic has received in reliable sources. I'll be working on that as well. The claims not supported directly and explicitly by reliable sources, such as the claim that Ghandi was a fruitarian (a word he did not use), will disappear. The groups promoting fruitarianism will have their say, but everything will be descriptive and non-controversial. I'm hoping to find third-party sources that have already pulled and pooled this material to make some broad statements as each fruitarian group gives its own definitions that disagree with those used by others. In short, I think we can come up with a wp:verifiable, neutral article free of original research. Wish me luck. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 14:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "unverifiable source"
The Annual Review of Nutrition is a peer reviewed journal. Yes, the doi link in the cite would require a subscription. However, that is a convenience link only. The ARN continues to publish its deadtree (paper) version, available through any decent library. Citing the Review is akin to citing a major newspaper that does not make its archive freely available online (except that the ARN is a peer reviewed, scientific journal and a major newspaper is just a fish wrapper). - Mdsummermsw (talk) 19:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the explanation; I assumed the ARN was online-only from the way the citation was laid out. I will try to verify this source at my local library. My library has ARN's issues from only 1997 onward available online, so I'll have to find a print version. Though I admit I'm a bit skeptical of how relevant this citation is due to its age (from 1983). -kotra (talk) 20:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Sorry if the cite style was confusing, it's pretty standard for a journal. To realize it's a print source, note the date and page numbers.
- If 1983 is "too old", we'll really have to lose a good number of the references, starting with "(HM Shelton; "Hygienic Review" June 1976)", which you might also want to try to find while you're at the library. The university I'm affiliated with said they could get it months ago, still no word. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 12:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Yeah, the misunderstanding was due to my ignorance, not any actual problem with the citation style.
- I don't know if 1983 is too old for this subject, I just was a bit skeptical. The claim the 1976 citation backs up will always be true, whereas the statement the 1983 citation backs up has the potential to become out-of-date. What is once considered quackery or a fad could eventually become a more mainstream diet that is more accepted by the scientific community, like vegetarianism has. I'm not claiming fruitarianism has or ever will (it still seems to be a fringe, potentially dangerous diet), but it gives me pause at least. If the "quackery" conclusion the article puts forth is based on outdated views, it might not be ok to include it here. But this is just hypothetical; probably it's still completely correct. I've requested a copy of the article from my local library (I couldn't get the actual complete journal unfortunately), so hopefully I'll be able to verify it. I doubt I could verify the 1976 source, though, since we don't have the article name or the page numbers. -kotra (talk) 17:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Removed content
There were some content removals recently, which I reverted and explained in my edit summaries why. The content has since been removed again, so I'm explaining in more detail here. These issues should be discussed here instead of engaging in a reversion war.
1. Go Ask Alice! is Columbia University. It is part of the Health Promotion Program at Columbia University. This is verifiable by noticing the top right corner of the Ask Alice page, which says "health services at columbia" and "Columbia University's Health Q&A Internet Service". It is also verifiable by visiting the Go Ask Alice! FAQ page.
2. An entire, mostly well-referenced paragraph about several things was removed, ostensibly because the first sentence was questioned. Putting aside for a moment the issue with the first sentence, entire paragraphs should not be removed because one part of it is questioned. Only that part should be removed. As for the sentence in question, it is referenced properly, though I have not been able to verify the reference yet. I am working on it though (see the section above this one). Until then, if you doubt its veracity, ask Mdsummermsw for clarification of the source, as she is the one who added it.
3. If you can find a reliable source that claims that green leafy vegetables or algae are sufficient sources for B12, by all means add it. However, the overwhelming consensus in the scientific community seems to be that all plant sources of B12 are insufficient or unreliable. I have included a reference to the National Institutes of Health to back up the claim. This is a reliable source. If you disagree with NIH's conclusions, remember that Wikipedia's policy is verifiability, not truth.
These issues should be discussed here. If I do not hear any objections within a few days, I will revert the removals again. -kotra (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- Since there have been no objections, I have reverted these edits again. -kotra (talk) 17:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Steve Jobs
I have just removed Jobs. The source used was far from reliable and was contradicted by a reliable source giving a very different source for the Apple name.[3] - Mdsummermsw (talk) 14:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Woz agrees.[4] - Mdsummermsw (talk) 14:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
- Fox News confirms.[5] - Mdsummermsw (talk) 14:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
