Talk:Franco-Belgian comics

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Contents 1 Talk 2 Bandes Dessinées vs Bande Dessinée 2.1 Pros La Bande Dessinée 2.2 Contra La Bande Dessinée 3 Les Humanoïdes Associés 4 Illustrations 5 Do wee need a separated Belgian comics page ? 6 Franco-Belgian vs. Belgian, French, Franco-Belgian 7 Why Dutch Links? 8 words are powerful 9 Proposed Franco-Belgian comics group 10 Merging with Belgian comics 11 ArtsEditor link

[edit] Talk

Whe speak about école franco-belge vs. école américaine. Can you turn something about that in good english?

In the first half of the eighties, there was a comics hierarchy in the rec.arts section of Usenet. Although technically for discussion about all comics, most of the talk was about men in tights (i.e. the type of comic that dominates (former) British colonies). A new newsgroup was founded based on the distinction between (super-hero) comics, manga, and 'European comics'.

This is in line with for instance Erik Tjong Kim Sang's web site about 'European comics' [1].

I myself mention on this that Tintin 'fits in with other comics in the great 20th century tradition of the European humouristic adventure strip (such as Franquin's Spirou and Goscinny's Asterix).'

However, if you want to use Franco-Belgian, that is fine with me, I just request that you do not make a list without making clear what the list is about.

If I had to guess from the 'Franco-Belgian' lists themselves, I would guess that they are about Francophones from France and Belgium making comics. However, those are only the tip of the iceberg of European style comics. There are many, many Spanish, Dutch, US American, Canadian etc. authors that fit in that category. Comparing comics made by Francophone French and Belgian authors with those made by (US?) Americans hardly makes any sense. (Which category would Robert Crumb fall in?) ;-)

In the Netherlands the distinction is made easy by calling the European category 'strips' (also those in long form) and the American category 'comics' (our language institute cannot forbid using English words). I believe there is a similar distinction in French, i.e. bande dessinée versus comics?

In short: I'd like your articles to begin with a definition of your subject. :-) Thanks in advance,

--user:Branko

[edit] Bandes Dessinées vs Bande Dessinée

There is a little editors' war on whether Franco-Belgian comics should be referred as les Bandes Dessinées or La Bande Dessinée. I propose that we agree on the right term in this page.

As the initiator of current form of this page and french speaking belgian comic books reader and drawer, I think the plural form should not been mentioned here. Why ? Because:

1. The art in itself is called La Bande Dessinée. The same applies for the franco-belgian comics industry.
2. A single comic book is called Une(La) Bande Dessinée.

I think that willing to speak of Les Bandes Dessinées is probably confusion with the English term Comics which is a plural form. In french, it is singular form.

PS: See similar discussion for Comics.

Lvr 10:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pros La Bande Dessinée

1. Lvr, for the reasons I explained above.
2. Helldjinn 11:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC), for the reasons I explained below.

[edit] Contra La Bande Dessinée

1. Signor_Giuseppe, because a single "drawn strip" does not sequential art make. A Frenchman would say "J'aime les bandes dessinées" if he liked comics, as in reading them, collecting them, etc., and "J'aime la Bande Dessinée" if he liked the art-form, i.e. thought sequential art was an elegant, meaningful way to express oneself. There is a large overlap, which is why I believe both should be included here. I agree that, just like in English, the etymologically insignificant singular has come into use to refer to one comic, as Lvr pointed out, but this does not mean that La Bande Dessinée means Comics.--Signor Giuseppe 18:03, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As a French, a Frenchman would NOT say "J'aime les bandes dessinées" if he likes comics as reading them, collecting them... He would use that sentence if he wants to point out some bandes dessinées among others, like in "J'aime les bandes dessinées américaines". The singular form is always prefered to talk about the bande dessinée in the globality. Helldjinn 11:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I cannot deny Helldjinn's logic or his authority, but I think his example just proves my point. He says "J'aime les bande dessinées américaines" means "I like American comics" (like "I enjoy reading Superman, Garfield, etc."), whereas "J'aime la bande dessinée américaine" would mean "I like the American comics scene" (like "I enjoy comics in little stapled together pamphlets, where the characters are mostly superheroes"). I agree, then, that this article is about La Bande Dessinée (Franco-Belgique) but the sentence says that that's the French word for comics, which I say is Les Bandes Dessinées. In my academic writings on the subject (in French) I used la BD to mean Franco-Belgian comics, la bande dessinée to indicate the format they both use to produce les bandes dessinées and les comics as the American version.--Signor Giuseppe 04:23, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to bother you Signor and I don't know who you are, but do you mind, if we, french speaking guys, pretend to know how we speak in our daily language about comics ? Have you ever listened to french speaking guys talking about comics in some France/Belgian/Switzerland comics bookstore ? You would here "J'aime la bande dessinée" 90% of the time , and "J'aime les bandes dessinées" a poor 10%. This is just that simple. May be are you willing to teach us how to speak french ? Sorry if i sound agressive Lvr 12:03, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am no longer impressed by the tone of this discussion, and do not believe that I used such snide language with Lvr as he did with me. Considering his authority as an actual Frenchman, I obviously have no leg to stand on, and if it is that important to him that the opening paragraph not mention les bandes dessinées than he has my blessing to delete it, and my guarantee that I will not put it back in.--Signor Giuseppe 22:04, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, more gently, I would say that les bandes dessinées can not be said in French. It's just like for cinema. A Frenchman would not say J'aime les films (I like movies) but j'aime le cinéma. But he could say J'aime le cinéma américain and J'aime les films américain (which, in that case, means the same). Why and how, I can't tell, but that's the way it is. There's something missing when we just say j'aime les bandes dessinées. And to correct one of your sentence : you used la BD to mean Franco-Belgian comics, la bande dessinée to indicate the format they both use to produce des bandes dessinées franco-belges and des comics as the American version. I would use des (some) in these case. And finally, une bande dessinée refers to all kind of comics (American comics, mangas, manhwas, franco-belgian comics). As in English, to refer to Franco-Belgian comics, we use bande dessinée frano-belge. Helldjinn 10:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That I was insulted by the tone the discussion had taken did not mean that I was not convinced. The big problem here is that Americans can't even agree on a defintion for comics (Sequential Art or Words+Pictures) so it's certainly not going to translate to French. So in some contexts les bandes dessinées means comics, and in some la bande dessinée does. For the purposes of the opening paragraph (and, as we've discussed, for completeing the sentence "J'aime..."), I am now entirely persuaded that the latter is correct. Je vois que personne n'a changé le premier paragraphe en attendant ma réponse, ce qui est très poli. Je le récrirai moi-même, alors que cela ne doive plus changer. Debate closed.--Signor Giuseppe 01:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Les Humanoïdes Associés

I removed then Les Humanoïdes Associés link from the 90s renewal, because the paragraph speeks about new publishing houses. I know this publishing house is an important one and may worth being mentionned, but is not a "new one from 90s". Casterman, Dargaud, Glénat are not mentionned either. I wazs planning wrting a Franco-Belgian publishing houses article where it would be mentionned. Lvr 11:16, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Also, good idea for an article. I'll be glad to help once it's started. Mikkel 09:05, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is started !!! I wrote an introduction and rewrote the article on Casterman. Lvr 15:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excellent. I've wroten a stub on Les Editions Dargaud. I have to run now though, but I thought I'd get in the basics. Mikkel 16:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrations

This page could do with some illustrations. I've added a picture of Tintin in the introduction as an example of a famous comic, but there should also be illustrations of the various styles and newer comics. Mikkel 10:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will scan a few samples. Altought I don't have much of the 70s stuff. Lvr 15:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will try to see if I can find some wordless comics from the seventies. I'd prefer to show pages in the original language, and most of my comics are either Danish or English translations. Mikkel 16:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, some of that arty Metal Hurlant stuff was silent, as far as I could recall... 81.232.72.148 23:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

That's true. I'd forgotten about this, I'll see what I can dig out from my collection Mikkel 09:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Do wee need a separated Belgian comics page ?

User:Mjolnir1984 has started a separated page for Belgian comics, with a possible interesting content (but you to be writed). I think this material should be added here, on the Franco-Belgian comics page. Could you guys give you opinion on the Talk:Belgian comics ? Lvr 12:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I got myself informed by some communication science literature. Flemish comics are considered as part of a wider European (+/- Franco-belgian) style, but are dealt with seperately because they developed their own characteristics, had their own evolution, etc. What I suggest is to mention the specific characteristics and evolution of Flemish comics on the Franco-Belgian page. Mjolnir1984, 20:28, 29 oktober 2005 (UTC)

Yes, we do need one, I mean part of Belgium shares part of its comics stuff with the Neterlands, part of it with France, paying just attention to the latter is giving an extremely biased description. ThW5 15:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you, but the article currently in Belgian comics needs a lot of work to get up to wikipedia standards.Mikkel 16:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You are right, but it is rather an insult to Belgium not to give it its own page, with MORE attention to the Belgian comics, I mean Urbanus, Suske&Wiske, Nero and Jommeke ARE from a different country than Asterix, yes there is a connection in style and all, but to push everything that happens in Antwerp in the same article as the stuff in Paris is simply lumping too much stuff together. Yes, there is nothing like a seperate "Belgian" drawing style, but Belgium is a country in its own right, with its own comics. A listing of Belgian series, Belgian stuff and all is quite well possible. Focussing more on the actual comics and how they relate to eachother in popularity and all, should be done on national pages, Franco-Belgian should be more more on styles, schools and their history, not so much on the actual comics themselves. I guess I will do Dutch Comics, before I start on Belgian ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThW5 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

For me a separated Belgian comics page is not intersting, because 3/4 of the belgian comics would already be treated the Franco-Belgian page. Let's me explain this.

While we are speaking about Franco-Belgian comics, we are not talking about french-speaking comics, but comics from France and Belgium, whether initially in french or in dutch. We are more dealing with style schools (ligne clair vs. Marcinelle vs. more adult style that emerged from France in 70s vs. the more artistic style that emerged in the late 90s vs. ....) than regional schools. Of course, there are some regional specificities in comics as there are in Blegium regions' cultures. And they have to be pointed out, whithin this article.

What about comics like Clifton or magazines like Tintin that are (were) published simultaenously in french and dutch. On wich page sould they nbe mentionned ? On both ? We could state the some the most famous flemish comic books are not heavily translated into french (Jommeke, Nero, ...) but I think they belong definitively to the same school. Just compare Jommeke and Quick and Flupke (as far has I konw Jommeke).

I wrote most of the part of the Belgian comics article, namely the characteristics in style and publishing format. I choose to write this part in the Belgian article rather then the one of the Franco-Belgian school because the economics were pretty much set up in the years immediately following world war II (the paper rationing during the war leading to the transition from daily black-and-white strip to weekly colored full-page). I do not know enough of the situation in France to know how they came to a comparable format. Imitation? parallel developement? cross-influence? Until someone more knowledgable with the genesis of French comics can help us out, I cannot claim that the parts I wrote are relavant to the COMPLETE Franco-Belgian school.Niklas o'Bee 04:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Tintin and Spirou (both as magazines and as characters) are older than their Dutch counterparts, so that's no problem. Harold Clifton was TRANSLATED into Dutch, where is the problem with that?ThW5 21:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

But the magazine Bravo where Edgar P. Jacobs started (a really french speaking author) was created as a flemish magazine in 1936, before being translated in french in 1940 (if my sources are correct)... As you can see, everything is so mixed, it is really better to have one single article. I'm going to add some content, but I would need to be helped by some flemish dudes ! Lvr 09:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

For me it all clearly should be a single article. I think these regional specifiicities should be simply described here. Lvr 11:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I propose that we make this clearer in the preface of the article (which has gotten somewhat cluttered as it is, some of that info could do with being moved down the page), reinstate the the redirect in Belgian Comics, and create a section (or more) on national differences. Mikkel 16:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

If you think Belgium is not woth its own article, nobody stops you.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ThW5 (talk • contribs)

Sorry, I didn't understand that. I've moved part of the preface downwards on this page, to make the introduction less cluttered. If you have material to make specific Dutch & Belgian pages, please do add them. I suggest a headline below history called "National markets" with a short introduction about how countries that are normally under the Franco-Belgian umbrella sometimes have their own idiosyncrasies etc, possibly with links to bigger pages if the information turns out to be too big to keep in this page. Mikkel 09:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Please contribute here. I have created this temporary page to gather facts and content about Flemish comics that would be later on added in this article as a new section. Feel free to add, reformat, rewrite, ... Lvr 10:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think a separate page for Flemish comics would be the easiest, as I think that while the Flemish comics are clearly influenced by the Franco-Belgian style (mainly Franquin and Hergé), they have their own character, which is clearest in their publication method and in their contents. Of course there is interaction, just like Dutch comics (post Kresse and Toonder, which were more Anglo-American oriented) are influenced by both the Franco-Belgian ones and the Flemish ones. A page about Belgian comics may be superfluous, as there is nothing (IMO) that unites Belgian comics and at the same time separates them from other countries' comics (like the French). But I realise it is not all so clear cut (what with Morris and De Moor?). Fram 13:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed my mind completely, and created a separate Belgian comics page from scratch. I feel that more than enough can be said (and perhaps more importantly, has been said by reliable sources) about Belgian comics as a separate entity (style, origin, history, economically, ...) to make it a valid subject of its own article (it even has a separate museum!). This in no way means that Franco-Belgian comics (or Flemish, Walloon, .. comics) is not equally a valid subject for an article of course, but I don't think it makes sense to merge the two. I hope everyone can agree with this in principle (while probably disagreeing on the exact contents of the two articles of course). Fram 14:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice work! One point, there was a section in the old version about consequences of the magazine system [2], which actually fits both the FB and B pages (and actually widely in contintental Europe, at least for page size/book length). I wonder if there's a good way to salvage that, without duplicating too much work. At the moment, it's mentioned in passing a few times in the FB article, but maybe an article on European comic book formats or something could be made... Thoughts? Mikkel 08:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Franco-Belgian vs. Belgian, French, Franco-Belgian

(below comment moved from /temp talk page) Mikkel 15:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I rather doubt wether Franco-Belgian comics deserves to be that large, yes there is a common culture, but if we would be fair both French comics and Belgian comics should have their own ARTICLES too, just like any other country with enough comics history to have its own comics museum. Franco-Belgian should not cover the main part of Studio Vandersteen's work, while that should have a very important topic in Belgian comics, or if you would prefer Belgian comics a short article with links to a large Flemish comics article.

More important is that different comics cultures/histories in different countries should have their own articles, but Franco-Belgian is currently a lumped article, with insufficient detail. I mean the connection between France and Belgium (certainly Flanders) is not strong enough to justify lumping things like conventions, museums... ThW5 12:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I propose that we first try to add some content related to Flemish comics here. We could then see what we have achieved and decide, via a consensus here, or even a poll on the WikiProject Comics whether we go for a merge or split by country, by language. Lvr 15:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Dutch Links?

What are the Zilveren Dolfijn and Comiclopedia link doing on THIS SITE?

Certainly Comiclopedia should be here, it is the best English language European comics encyclopedia online. Zilveren Dolfijn also has an English language section, and contains much info on specific comics. This could perhaps also be got from another source (bédétheque or so), but preferably one that exists in English as well. Or is your problem wpecifically with them being Dutch? I don't think that matters at all. Fram 13:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it matters, both Zilveren Dolfijn and Comiclopedia are multilingual, and cover a large part of Europe or even the world. Putting links to them HERE suggests they deal with Franco-Belgian comics, which is just a part of what they cover, linking to them from here without explaining that only part of their topics have to do with FRanco-Belgian comics is rather weird. Comiclopedia is probably the best global comics encyclopedia online, not just European. It is a generic COMICS resource and Zilveren Dolfijn covers Dutch and German comics as well.

[edit] words are powerful

I just want to mention Belgium is a living contrast, anything regarding french-dutch divisions is sure to be misinterpreted by one or both sides. Franco-Belge carries an undertone of francofonie, conveying the meaning of strips in french rather than the two countries output. Personally i don't mind it too much, but i do think European Strips is the best etymological choice at this moment, even French-Belgian Comics would be more fair/distinct. It's all in the eye of the beholder i know, but words and meaning are powerfull conveyors of underlying ideas/realities, and well worth this discussion imho.

[edit] Proposed Franco-Belgian comics group

There is now a proposed project or project subgroup relating explicitly to Franco-Belgian comics at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Franco-Belgian comics. Any editors interesting in working with this group should indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter 17:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging with Belgian comics

A wonderful article Belgian comics has been lately written. It is a great article which imho is worth being featured in a near future. In particular, this article is well referenced though it misses a bit of English references. Imho, the content of this article is far superior to the Franco-Belgian comics article.

The question is however whether both strongly overlapping articles should not be merged? Vb 08:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

You make me blush :-) While there is indeed much overlap, I feel that there are enough differences as well to keep them separate. If we would include the history of French comics completely as well, the article would be way too long and would need to be separated anyway. Perhaps a short article about the true Franco-Belgian comics (characteristics, magazines, ..) can be made, and two long articles about Belgian comics and French comics? Fram 09:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Earlier, I suggested that we create a number of articles (European comic book formats, for example), and use those for the "common" stuff, but received no feedback. What do you think? Mikkel 19:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The term "Franco-Belgian comics" have long been used for a particular comics style and tradition in Europe, where a market have emerged that has little to do with national borders, but more of a common language. Even francophone comics from other countries such as Switzerland (Derib, Ceppi etc.) and Luxembourg are usually considered Franco-Belgian. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

This is also my opinion. However, Fram seems to know much more than I do. Maybe Fram should list all the topics which should belong to a future French comics article. We could therefore better understand why a Franco-Belgian comics article should in his opinion be reduced to a short summary. Vb 12:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.175.251.75 (talk)

It's mainly like Wakuran says. Franco-Belgian comics should describe the genre (the Spirou-Tintin kind, let's call it), without focusing only on Belgian or French comics (i.e. including relevant Swiss, Polish, German, ... comics), and without including unrelated French and/or Belgian comics. Next to it, we have separate articles for a historical (not stylistic) overview of the production of one country (or region or whatever is the most pactical), so we have Belgian comics, French comics, Dutch comics, Italian comics, Swiss comics... This system would in my opinion give all info necessary to understand the complicated history of these comics, and would not put completely unrelated artists (not by style and not by country) like Marc Sleen and Louis Joos in one article. The Franco-Belgian comics article could expand on the stylistical influence of the Ligne Claire and of the Atom style / Marcinelle on European comics as a whole (with Joost Swarte and so on). The division of the two (country vs. style-publishing method) is not perfect, but I think it is doable, and certainly better IMO than merging French Comics and Belgian Comics into one much too large article (I suppose no one really supports having Frenchcomics and Franco-Belgian comicsas separate articles, but nto Belgian comic as well?). Fram 12:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't suppose so either. Totally agreeing with the above ("Belgian comics" as a regional focus article, and in-depth destination from "Franco-Belgian comics", a non-national article on a genre, culture and industry) there are surely sources to make up a separate "French comics" article which isn't a redirect to F-Bc (offhand not knowing which or what). Is there awareness of scholarly publication on isolated French comics? Subjects such as reaction to perceived Belgian dominance, the rise and fall of publications such as Pilote, L'Écho des savanes, Métal Hurlant, success of series like Astérix and Valérian, creators distinctly diverging from the Belgian schools such as Moebius, Druillet, "adult tendencies" etc. should be ample material for a French equivalent to "Belgian comics"? MURGH ^disc. 11:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ArtsEditor link

Just in case this is a controversial pull -- it's a well-written piece, no question, but it's really about American comics with some Eurocomics context in it. It's got a nice scan of an early Tintin book and has a paragraph on Franco-Belgian comics in the middle, but then it jumps right back to DC books of the late '80s, and the thesis (I think -- it's kind of muddled) seems to be that American comics are catching up in terms of being regarded seriously.

I'm not that anxious about it, but it seemed like a pretty tenuous connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MattShepherd (talk • contribs) 11:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)