Talk:English Springer Spaniel

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Contents 1 Springer Rage Syndrome 2 Spot Fetcher 3 Celtic history 4 Newbie Question: Do we list breeder site on here? 5 See also 6 Bench champions 7 Wikipedians with Springers 8 Copy/paste of breed standard

[edit] Springer Rage Syndrome

We need to add some info on S.R.S. There was a good article in the printed magazine from http://www.avma.org/ recently

"Springer Rage Syndrome" is an unfortunate label. The truth is that rage aggression can occur in most any breed of dog - not just springers. Using the term "springer rage" only perpetuates the idea that the problem is specific to springers and leads people to assume that all springers are prone to the disorder. Having owned a springer who developed rage aggression myself, I am VERY familiar with the condition. I can also say that rage aggression is extremely uncommon in the field bred English springer spaniel. Show breeders are also to be commended, as they have been making great efforts to improve their gene pool, as well.--Crickette 19:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spot Fetcher

Spot Fetcher has deceased, should there be some indication of this underneath his image on the English Springer Spaniel page? Jack 18:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Celtic history

Addition to the page say that legend attributes victory at Battle of Stirling Bridge in part to a spaniel, but that article says nothing about a dog. Can anyone verify and/or add appropriate info? Elf | Talk 19:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree, can someone elaborate more abour the so-called Merlin MacDonald, he doesn't appear in any website save for this page!! April 11th 2006, 20:38 GMT-6

[edit] Newbie Question: Do we list breeder site on here?

Hi there, I'm new here and have been going thru alot of the Sporting Dog breeds and wonder if we do/or will we, ever be listing breeders? Wouldn't listing these websites be an advantage here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LdyDragonfly (talk • contribs) .

I doubt if breeder listings would go over well:

• They can be regarded as commercial, and if there is any possibility that they are posted or modified by the breeders themselves, they will be quickly reverted.
• They are arguably not encyclopedic.
• Breeders come and go, so it would be hard to keep the list current.
• General clubs (such as AKC) and breed clubs often have breeder referral services, which is a more appropriate place.

Also (IMO), I'd never get a dog from a breeder listed only in Wikipedia, and a reputable breeder would not sell me a dog just because I found their listing in Wikipedia.--Curtis Clark 05:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also

I added back Welsh Springer Spaniel; it links to this article, and both are linked from the Springer Spaniel disambiguation page.--Curtis Clark 07:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason why there should be an internal link to only the Welsh Springer Spaniel. There is no breed specific similarities here other than name. If there was going to be a see also link, it should be to the AKC's Sporting dog group (which is only a stub under gun dogs). There should exist a disambiguation page for "Springer Spaniel", but no need to link between the two breeds of springer spaniel. They are two of twenty six breeds listed under the sporting group. Acherrington 03:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, let's try again. This is an encyclopedia; it's for people who don't already know about a subject. One of the values that editors add is to enable readers to find what they are looking for even when they are unsure about what it is called.

It's important to make clear to readers that English Springers and Welsh Springers are different breeds. But a lot of people have just heard "springer spaniel" (and even that doesn't keep them from mistaking my springer for a setter). One solution would be to have a disambiguation link, something like "For other breeds with similar names, see Springer Spaniel" at the top of both articles. Another solution is the current one, to have a "see also" reference from each breed to the other. I can't think of any other solution than these two for helping people who have just heard "springer spaniel", but got to the article in some manner other than searching "springer spaniel", to know whether they are at the right breed. And it needs to be done the same way for both articles.--Curtis Clark 04:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bench champions

I reverted the elimination of the Westminster best-in-show; it's not like Westminster is some local show and these dogs were only competing against other ESS. I agree that field champions should be included as well, especially springers that have bested other breeds in national competitions.--Curtis Clark 03:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedians with Springers

If you are a Wikipedian and have springer(s) then consider adding the following template to your User page:

{{User:Mikebar/UBX/User English Springer Spaniel}} Mikebar 10:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copy/paste of breed standard

I have twice removed tables from this article which are full quotes from various country's kennel clubs (or equivalent). Cite the breed standards, paraphrase them, but to simply copy text across whole is not the right thing to do - it is copyright infringement in my opinion. --TimTay (talk) 22:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Quotes aren't necessarily copyright infringements (see WP:QUOTE). These boxes are the consistent way that the dog articles are set up (see golden retriever, labrador retriever, chihuahua (dog), etc.) If you don't like the idea of this, you'd have to check out the pages as a whole, rather than target one specific breed & make it inconsistent with the rest. Perhaps visit Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs, and I bet that they could better assist you. Thanks, нмŵוτнτ 23:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's an issue for all the breeds. Copyright law is complex and varies among different countries, but in the US (where en.wikipedia is hosted), you'd be right about a single quote. But inasmuch as you would eventually reproduce the standards for every breed in Wikipedia, the copyright holder might very well claim foul, since a substantial and important part of the work would be duplicated.--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think this issue should be discussed. However, it should be mentioned in a larger forum, rather than on a particular breed's page. нмŵוτнτ 02:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but WP:QUOTE doesn't cover this - and besides the quotes are not attributed. The AKC is very specific about copyright and this material is a blatant infringement and must be removed from this and other articles. --TimTay (talk) 09:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are attributed. The attribution stands out even more than the quote itself. Rather than targeting specific articles and performing mass taggings without discussion with those who came up with the idea is a bad idea. Let's get consensus before you do this. I'm not sure why they started doing this to all of the articles, but let's start up a conversation with those who originally placed the templates. нмŵוτнτ 13:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Please show me exactly where the cut and pasted text is cited. Did you read the AKC policy? It seems pretty clear to me. As for the copyvio tag, leave them be for now and let an administrator decide. I won't tag any more articles and will participate in a discussion at Wikiproject Dogs, which I have already initiated. --TimTay (talk) 14:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

To me, the AKC policy is clear. Whether they could prevail in a court of law is unclear, but they could certainly make life miserable for Wikipedia in the meantime, which means that the text cannot remain. IANAA (I am not an administrator), but I imagine the response will be to require the text to be removed from all breed pages, and then there can be a consensus as to an alternative.

Independent of the copyright issue, it's a bad idea to reproduce breed standards when the authoritative versions are available on-line. What happens when an organization changes a standard? The Wikipedia page will be out of sync until someone notices and changes it. For some breeds, this might take hours or even minutes, but for other breeds it might take months or years.--Curtis Clark (talk) 14:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's a bad idea to have them on the pages. They're unattractive and perhaps a copyvio. I simply want consistency throughout the breeds, which is why I want to keep this specific page like those of other breeds. I am not typically very active on dog pages as a whole, so I'm leaving it to those who are. нмŵוτнτ 15:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dogs#Copyright_violation_-_breed_standards for general discussion of the problem and my reasoning for removal. Copyright violations are removed until they are proved not to be, not the other way around. Shell ^babelfish 15:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on the fact the the copyvio has been removed and looks unlikely to be replaced based on the discussion above and at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dogs#Copyright_violation_-_breed_standards I have struck this article from the report at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2008 February 25 Jeepday (talk) 16:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)