Talk:Eight Deer Jaguar Claw

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Year of death in text inconsistent with year of death in category. Gene Nygaard 14:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography section based on Mann's 1491

Mann is not a reliable source, his work is tendentious and driven by an agenda of glorification of indigenous america. He is not an expert about Mixtec or any other american civilization - and uses sources extremely poorly. The article in its current state makes it seem that a lot more factual knowledge about 8 Deer Jaguar Claw is known than it actually is. Knowledge about 8 Deer Jaguar Claw is restricted to varying interpretations of the Mixtec Picture Codices - this article presents one such interpretation as fact when in fact it is closer to speculation. the article should clearly show the provenance of our knowledge about 8 deer jaguar Claw and the problems connected to the understanding of prehispanic mesoamerican history and the interpretation of pictographic historical accounts. While the article certainly needed to be expanded the information from Mann needs to be verified by proper, reliable sources.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 16:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I can only agree with Maunus, Mann's account is in essence a fictive or speculative reconstruction that unjustifiably goes way beyond what little data exists. It should be taken with a truckload of salt.--cjllw ʘ TALK 02:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't heard that some believe Mann to be unreliable. If he is, and what you are saying about the interpretation of historical picture accounts does make sense, then I can see why you took down my biography. But, if he "uses sources extremely poorly" to help out his "agenda of glorification of indigenous america", shouldn't there be a note somewhere? Wikipedia has pages on both the book and Mann, and nowhere is criticism of his methods or the belief that he wove some fact with fiction even mentioned. I think that these criticisms should be expressed on one of those pages if you are willing to take down his information because of it. Rufous-crowned Sparrow 23:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The best idea is to say "according to controversial historian Bob Mann, Jaguar Claw was a..." Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Rufous-crowned Sparrow: hi. Yes, quite likely the articles on Mann and his 1491 book should have some critical commentary documented in them. The criticism would need to be attributable to notable 3rd party sources, however, otherwise it'd be uncited opinion. Not high on my list of things to get around to, though.

Sherurcij: I think a better approach for this article would be to continue its expansion using other, less problematic sources, for eg those that are now referenced here and as per Maunus' reorg. There are a number of others that could be added. Not that these are flawless, but I think by taking a range of input and not being too categorical when making statements that are really only interpretive, it should be a reasonably balanced approach. Perhaps Mann could (also) be cited, but since Mann's is a broad-brush treatment covering all of the Americas and as such not a specific analysis of Mixtecan historical docs, IMO it's not as useful as those sources that do have that declared focus and expertise. My 2c, anyways.--cjllw ʘ TALK 01:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have rewritten the biography section based on Pohl. It seems to match up ok with Manns story except for the less colourful prose and some minor parts of the story which seem to be speculation by the part of Mann. I hope this is satisfactory for all - else we can always keep making it better.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)