Talk:Dual dating

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A fact from Dual dating appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on February 4, 2008.

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—Yamara ✉ 22:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I signed up. I would be glad for any advice you have for improving the quality of the article. Thanks.--Mak Allen (talk) 10:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article as it stands is redundant

There is already a perfectly good article on Julian/Gregorian dates, so the logic of creating another one is non-obvious. I certainly support a merge of the current content. But what wikipedia does need is a generic article on date conversions and the periods when two dating systems were in force. This didn't just happen in Western Europe and its colonies, it happened in many places around the world.

So the Julian/Gregorian material in this article needs to be edited down heavily and the material in the OS/NS article that is about changes in Asia etc should be moved here. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You write:

"There is already a perfectly good article on Julian/Gregorian dates, ..."

which IMO illustrates the need for clarification, whether it's to be in this article or that one, however rearranged. The explanations are not good enough yet, either place. There is still too much confusion between the change to the first of January and the change to the Gregorian calendar. (Damn England and, I think, Wales, for doing both changes in the same year. Had they not, there'd be less confusion!)

Your suggestion about the types of info which should be moved here should be considered. I think I like that idea. --Hordaland (talk) 01:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that there were two independent issues (when the year starts 1 January or 1 March; how to correct for the cumulative leap minute errors), which AFIK is unique to the Europe-and-colonies instance. And I agree that it deserves a good section in the (revised) OS/NS article. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

For your reference: this listing arose because I was looking at a book that listed hyphenated dates. The need exists for a quick and dirty explanation of why a date has excess digits, and how genealogists and others should show that information in their own documents. For that reason, I do not think we should pare down the Gregorian/Julian info here. This is the bare minimum you need to understand how to treat the dates without having to click around to a lot of listings, which most readers should not have to do. The OS/NS issue deserves in depth study, but WP would also do well to provide a simple explanation directed to a question that I was unable to find an answer for on WP until I made this listing.　　As for moving the Asian content here, I think that is fine, and I would be glad to volunteer to do that if there is a consensus that the information should be moved here, and I am the appropriate person to do it.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 03:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The opening paragraph of the OS/NS article really ought to supply that clear and simple overview, according to the Manual of Style. Once done, that paragraph could be replicated here, as short introduction to the Europe+Colonies change. So maybe the opening paragraph of OS/NS needs work. Otherwise, it seems to me that have a workable compromise. Why don't you go ahead with developing this article along that line (replicating the Asia material intitially). If it is accepted (as I think it will), the Asia stuff can go from OS/NS. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I will try and get to it.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 05:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

How are my initial edits?--Mak Allen (talk) 10:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This article needs a world perspective (whereas the OS/NS article can be specifically about Europe + Colonies). So it is important to be consistent - and not get bogged down in the specifics of the European experience.

I think the article is better now but there are still some very complex sentences (particularly the one where everybody becomes older by fiat). I wonder if it would help if we used a country that did the Julian to Gregorian first, and the March - January some time later (such as Scotland, I think?). The England/Wales/America transition provides a very poor illustration as it muddles two issues. I can only say that if we find it so difficult to explain with the benefit of hindsight, no wonder there were "Give us back our 17 days!" riots! --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This sentence,

...but not in the American colonies in December and August, for reasons that are not yet known,

is trivia. IMO. Is there any reason to care? Is there any reason to expect that these reasons will become known? If so, it needs to be explained clearly enough that even I can understand it. Thanks.  :-) --Hordaland (talk) 21:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. At most it should be a footnote, but it is better to delete it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and edits. However, again due to my reason for interest in this topic, I respectfully disagree. I think this phrase should be included because other genealogists are wondering why some dates are or are not dual dated. I have changed it to a footnote to try to accommodate your objections.--Mak Allen (talk) 07:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Good, that works. A google search will find easily enough. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Hordaland (talk) 23:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)