Talk:Daniel Tammet

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Removed "and enjoys nothing more than driving a good tee shot or sinking a long putt." That seemed less encylopedic and more colloquial than necessary. Istvan 02:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

             I agree --ThisDude415

Contents 1 Gay? 2 List 3 Language skills 4 Surname 5 Just a silly comment, but... 6 Autistic? 7 Mental calculator 8 Spanish 9 Birthdate 10 Icelandic language 11 Jirojuki Goto

[edit] Gay?

I noticed he's on a list of gay/bisexual people, but his sexual orientation was not mentioned in the article. I plan to remove him unless someone can verify this. --jp3z 00:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, according to the first external link which says:

"He met the great love of his life, a software engineer called Neil, online. It began, as these things do, with emailed pictures, but ended up with a face-to-face meeting. "Because I can't drive, Neil offered to pick me up at my parents' house, and drive me back to his house in Kent. He was silent all the way back."

Apparently he is homosexual. Should we add that? 67.84.82.127 22:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's very intriguing that he is also gay! 75.24.193.39 21:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Since people who are autistic savants are almost always asexual is it not odd that Tammet is a homosexual. --NikolaiLobachevsky 02:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

unless you are a doctor or otherwise an expert on the subject of asbergers, i'd characterize that statement as a load of crap....--emerson7 | Talk 03:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

If they are almost always asexual, it is odd that he is not asexual, namely homosexual.--Urod 22:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not a load of crap. Studies have shown that autistic usually do not respond very much to emotion and usually are asexual. --NikolaiLobachevsky 18:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Crap. Both studies, and anecdotal evidence within the LGBT and Science Fiction Fandom communities, reveal a wide, Kinseyian range of intimate behavior amongst persons with AS. There have been recent articles in magazines discussing Tammet's relationship with his partner, as well as persons who are thought to have AS. I'll get some more cites in the next few days. Bearian 22:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I am adding the cite (The Advocate) and minor edits now. BYW, yes, some autistic persons may be asexual, but so are some "normal" people. Bearian 17:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List

We should really compile a list of savants for reference. I noticed when I searched for "savant" it only memtioned the rain man. Chickenofbristol 00:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

See People speculated to have been autistic. Bearian 22:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language skills

I'm fairly sure I could learn sufficient Icelandic in one week to be basically conversational, and I'm in no way exceptional. In fact, I suspect many people would learn more quickly than I could; many people in my field (historical linguistics) have to learn a new language in a short amount of time to use certain scholarly materials not available in English. Therefore, I favour removing the comment about Icelandic. CRCulver 04:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The video The Brain Man stated that Icelandic is a very difficult language and that his teacher was exceptionally suprised with how well he did. It showed him speaking with near-fluency that was supposedly recorder the week after he started learning Icelandic. It is noteworth. ~ Oni Lukos _ct 00:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I admire you CRCulver and this is very good, for the rest of us , learning a language in a 'week' is amazing and very worth retaining in the article.--Jondel 00:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm Icelandic and I saw the interview. It was live and he did respond to questions. - mubli

The issue isn't whether he responded to questions. What matters is what kind of questions he was presented and what kind of answers he gave. There's a world of difference between "What is the meaning of life?" and "What color is an apple?". As a language learner who aspires to be a polyglot, I do think his feat is impressive. But it would still be good to know how impressive. I'd like to see a translation of the interview into English, since at least it'd give the general idea. - furrykef (Talk at me) 15:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The Brainman documentary (which can be found on youtube as "Daniel Tammet - The Boy With The Incredible Brain") includes an excerpt from the actual translated Icelandic interview. There non-Icelandic speakers can see that the subject matter is fairly complex and Icelanders will see how well he applies Icelandic grammar, which is considerably more complex than English. He even manages to get humour in there that translates, which in itself in no mean feat. SHOlafsson 18:25, 18 February 2007

While Icelandic may be more difficult compared to, say, Spanish ... I don't know why we are calling it "one of the hardest languages to learn", when it is not that hard. Linking to Internet polls does not seem the best way to judge this. --65.30.76.141 20:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The polls are not to prove that Icelandic is hard or easy, it is to show Icelandic is "popularly perceived" as being hard (which is really common knowledge that many people think it is hard - if its true or not is irrelevant and besides the point). Adding this adds context and meaning to the section, it explains why they choose Icelandic, and not Spanish. -- Stbalbach 20:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be better to cite their stated goals/reasoning for choosing Icelandic. Whether or not they're right about public perception doesn't really matter. --66.41.102.194 04:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's cited the 60-min episode mentions it in the same context written here. -- Stbalbach 23:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

That's ridiculous! This was a news program, the choice of Icelandic seems to be predicated on the fact that not many people speak it relative to other European languages and the ease of access of the television show for the interview. I believe that adding a non-factual statement based on common stereotype only further perpetuates the stereotype and does not add context. The news program erroneously pegged Icelandic as a hard language to learn (they are not linguistics and it is an entertainment program), let us not propagate this. If anything it would be worth noting that Icelandic is not commonly spoken outside of Iceland, ergo we can assume the average person would not have any passive experience with it. We can be really confusing and state "Icelandic is not that difficult to learn with someone of his linguistic background, but the producers chose it because of their inexperience in the field and the fact that it unlikely he previously had learned Icelandic and that Aboriginal talk shows are in short demand" ... as it is I think we should let it stand on its own and let the reader judge how impressive the feat is without biasing them. --65.30.76.141 21:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surname

The article states that he chose Tammet as his surname. If you know the original, please include it. ◄ИΞШSΜΛЯΞ► 13:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe his original surname is "Paul", but I could be mistaken. ~ Oni Lukos _ct 14:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

paul what? i'll be the first to voice an interest in the training/upbringing & family line of this savant.

His original name is Daniel Corney. In 2000 he competed in the World Memory Championships in London and finished in 4th place: http://www.msoworld.com/brain/mental/_mso4memorypopup.html Curiously he won the names and faces event, yet in the 60 minutes documentary he tells the interviewer that he will not remember their face after the interview.

[edit] Just a silly comment, but...

I really wish I could experience what his mind works like. To see numbers and words and other stimuli as meshes of color that simply include information is pretty amazing. Manfrin 09:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Befriend the psilocybe. ◄ИΞШSΜΛЯΞ► 00:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Read up on synaesthesia--Jondel 00:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Autistic?

It says he is but that it doesn't affect social interaction, yet the article on autism says that part of the definition of autism is that it affects social interaction Mernst 01:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Quite simply, he got lucky. Autism doesn't exactly hit the same way in everyone, and he was lucky enough not to be affected socially. ~ Oni Lukos _ct 02:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Has he been clinically diagnosed with autism? Obviously he is brilliant, but where is the evidence he is autistic. Is this merely speculative because he has abilities attributed to people who are otherwise handicapped? I can't find anywhere outside of wikipedia that claims he is autistic.

Autistic people don't like to interact, they can't live alone, they ussually can't compute if lets say some item, candy, a meal is expensive or not. They can 't ussualy estimate if they buy something, there will be change left over. They go berserk when things are not the way they are or changed a little. Is he like that?--Jondel 00:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

JOndel, that is very narrow minded and simply quite wrong... it sounds like you got most of your information from rain man... these behaviours you have mentioned can be true in some autistics, but it is important to keep a very open definition when speaking of autistics in general... there is a HUGE diversity.

Not at all. According to the Science Channel special, he exhibited autistic behaviour as a small child but eventually outgrew it. He still gets a little uneasy in certain situations, such as strolls through big cities (the skyscrapers cause his mind to project a lot of 9's, which he says "can be intimidating"). Prior to learning about this remarkable man, I didn't know that autism could be outgrown.

People with handicaps learn how to MANAGE their problems, which may look like they have outgrown them, but they are still there. Deaf people learn to lip read. If they become good at it, it still does not mean they can hear! There's no luck in it - just real hard work. I should know, I have my own handicap and it is hard work every day, but it will never stop me trying to do what I want to!! Geoff2DoThat 10:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Well then, by definition, he now has Asperger Syndrome, not Autism, right? --Farry 19:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Asperger's is definitely on the Autism spectrum... ~ Oni Lukos _ct 22:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

uh, I apologize if anyone was slighted or offended. Well, how would autism be defined? Concerning Daniel Tammet himself , the truth is I have great admiration for him and his language and other mental skills.--Jondel 20:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• On 60 Minutes they said it was it Asperger's Syndrome. -LtNOWIS 14:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

How could we be asking whether or not he is autistic, of course he is. All idiot savants are autistic, although not all autistic people are idiot savants. It is not possible to have as great brain power as he has and not have some serious disabilities. NikolaiLobachevsky 00:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

He taught himself how to interact. He said in the 60 minutes interview that as a child he was very autistic but learned how function "normally" because he had a big family and felt forced to "learn" how to interact and socialize and so on. He still displays certain elements of autisms such as compulsivity, slight agoraphobia or social disorder and certain brain deficiencies. As he mentioned he can only remember details but cannot remember the whole. This is truly a astonishing individual not only for talents but because he can describe basically "how autism works". Instead of running tests he can straight out tell us what his cognitive deficits and abilities are.24.203.165.168 21:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to say his mental condition. Obviously, he has a great deal of mathematical skill, but from interviews and such, it is clear that he does not show autistic symptoms, or at least he shows very little. Wikipedians who edit this article need to make sure that he is diagnosed autistic, not just assume that he is. I realize that the 60 minutes interview provides a great deal of information, however, we need more than just that source. We need to be sure of our facts when writing any article, especially one about a living person. Thunderlord 23:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

See People speculated to have been autistic. Bearian 22:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Concerning whether or not Daniel Tammett is autistic (or more strictly, on the autistic spectrum) none other than Simon Baron-Cohen one of the world leaders on austism spectrum disorders (ASD) has interviewed and tested Daniel, and agrees that he shows the major features of the ASD. Daniel discusses this in his autobiography, which, please note is subtitled "Inside the Extraordinary Mind of an Autistic Savant". That is, Daniel self-identifies as someone with ASD. Finally, when I was doing my PhD with V.S. Ramachandran I met Daniel, and noted that he showed many of the features of high functioning ASD. Although my own anecdotal evidence is not citable, the "Brainman" (a slightly edited version of which appears as "The Boy with the Incredible Brain in" the U.S.) documentary, and the follow-up with Morley Safer are. I don't think there's any doubt that Daniel is "on the spectrum" but he is clearly high-functioning. Edhubbard 08:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mental calculator

Is he one? I wish there was more mention.--Jondel 00:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

What makes him unique in some regard is that he says that he's not actually calculating, he's just getting the answer. ~ Oni Lukos _ct 00:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

He is not unique at all for any of these skills, see the German Rudiger Gamm who can memorize and recall the result faster, synaesthesia is a disability. There is no evidence that Daniel Tammet can get good results at any mental calculation competition... Please stop this marketing plan to make him sell his book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.44 (talk) 20:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Tammett is certainly not the only mental calculator in the world, but he is clearly among a very small handful of people who have such abilities. As for synesthesia, the idea that this is a disability is nothing more than your unsubstantiated, unreferenced, uninformed opinion. During my PhD work I tested him myself with Vilayanur S. Ramachandran and Shai Azoulai, while the cameras were rolling for the Brainman documentary. In that documentary, you clearly see that we were able to demonstrate that he has superior memory for numbers when they are all printed in the same size, or when they are printed in sizes consistent with what he reports, but his memory is severely impaired when the numbers are presented in sizes different from his synesthetic percepts (see the relevant part of the video here). It's all there on the video. Another group, headed by Simon Baron-Cohen have also done extensive testing of his memory, and how it interacts with his synesthesia, the results of which were just recently published in the Journal of Consciousness Studies. That is, two independent research groups have verified that his synesthesia plays a role in his memory. So, what's the evidence for your arguments, again? Edhubbard (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the evidences are very easy. You can write any paper, you don't have any practice so any publication might be worthless. Just have a look at the memory and mental calculation champions. They just display better skills than him, without synesthesia. I agree that synesthesia plays a role for a better memory, but as a disability it implies uncontrolled connexions, where as the world memory champion can control everything. His mental calculations are very slow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.83.119 (talk) 00:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's go through some of your comments, piece by piece...

First, what you have in the second sentence isn't "evidences". It is isn't even really on topic, but I'll say that it's at best an analogy. It might be a good one, it might not be. Since I'm not even sure I see the relevance, I'll leave that be.

Second, yes, Daniel is slower than some of the other lightning calculators, but it seems that this may be due to a strategic difference, not synesthesia. (Of course, he's only "very slow" compared to some of these folks; he's certainly able to do things that many of the rest of us cannot/do not do at all!) Most lightning calculators use so-called "direct retrieval" strategies for many parts of the answer, which depends on comprehension of the structure of the problem and long-term memory, while Daniel seems to rely on "on-line computation" of the problem every time it is presented to him. You can see a simpler version of this in your, me, or anyone else. When you first learn 5 x 5, you have to laboriously work out the answer, or if you are presented with a novel problem, you have to it work at the time that it is presented to you. On the other hand, as adults, we can simply "directly retrieve" the answer to 5 x 5 from long-term memory. In fact, it is even possible to show that different brain regions are involved in on-line computation and direct retrieval. Patients with lesions to one part of the brain, the called the intraparietal sulcus, lose the ability to do subtraction, but not multiplication, while patients with a lesion to another part of the brain, called the angular gyrus, lose the ability to recall their times tables, but retain the ability to do subtraction. So, Daniel is slower than some of the lightning calculators, but this might be due to strategy differences, rather than his synesthesia per se. It *could* be due to his synesthesia, but so far nothing you've said, or anything from the scientific literature makes it clear that, as you said above "synaesthesia is a disability." Given that Daniel is also mildly autistic, another reasonable possibility is that his difficulty in grasping the problem and using direct retrieval is due to his autism, not his synesthesia. You'd have to actually do a real, scientific experiment to disentangle these possibilities... got any ideas?

Third, nothing in synesthesia implies "uncontrolled connexions." There certainly is increased connectivity in synesthesia, but nothing suggests that these connections are "uncontrolled". Studies of brain function in synesthesia clearly show that there is additional activation in just the regions that we would expect, so that, for example, in synesthetes who report seeing colors for letters and numbers, there is additional activation in color selective areas of the brain (and not all over the place), and using a technique that allows us to measure connections of the living brain (diffusion tensor imaging), we see, again, no evidence of "uncontrolled" connections. Just stronger ones between very specific brain regions. This idea of yours that synesthesia is somehow a disability is the thing that troubles me the most in your comments.

Finally, concerning some of the "other champions" many of them are even less socially functional than Daniel, and their skills appear in only one domain. Part of what makes Daniel interesting to scientists is that he is relatively functional, verbal, and can explain what it is like to him. And, Daniel not only holds the European (yes, yes, not World) record for digits of pi memorized, but he also speaks seven languages, has created two of his own, runs his own business and has a fulfilling personal life. So, which of these factors are most important?

If you don't have something more constructive to add to the article and the talk page than your personal opinions and prejudices, it might be better to go someplace else. The talk page is supposed to be for discussions of how to make the article better. Edhubbard (talk) 01:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a point to give you the information: all the world champions and many world recordholders in memory and mental calculation are researchers, many of them have a Ph.D with high skills in a lot of areas. I am not interested in wasting time to update all the wrong information in this article and talk page and to reply. Believing there is a need to have autism, synesthesia, or any other abnormality in the brain is YOUR opinion and prejudice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.83.119 (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm autistic and have autistic friends and he certainly doesn't exibit any symptoms that I've seen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.43.221 (talk) 02:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish

He visualizes numbers. He hates it when scientists feed him serialized digits that look like pi but are not exactly pi.

If he learns to speak the Spanish language as spoken in Spain, would he be very upset to speak with people from South America? Would he be more angry to speak with an inexperienced Spanish student? "I HATE YOUR BLOODY SPANISH! SHUT UP! YOUR SPANISH LOOKS UGLY!" -- Toytoy 03:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Grow up, there is nothing to suggest that his empathy with numbers extends to languages. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.248.25.33 (talk) 09:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Birthdate

Regarding WP:BLP#Privacy_of_birthdays .. Tammet is a public and famous person, he has had film documentaries and has published his personal memoirs... His birthday is even included in the Guardian article which has already been linked as a source in the article. He is using fame and notoriety for personal gain and benefit, he has purposefully disclosed personal information to the public in his memoirs. -- Stbalbach 17:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

i'm in partial agreement with your position. somewhere i saw an image of his passporte in an article also. i'm not all that convinced about his privacy being violated. --emerson7 | Talk 17:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

actually, i found it. it's in the five-tv piece at 1 min 22 seconds into to video, showing his passporte and date of birth. whatever privacy he once may have had was surrendered with that shot. --emerson7 | Talk 17:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Icelandic language

The two citations to support Icelandic's status as one of the world's most difficult languages to learn are to a survey without any data and a typo-riddled forum page. Surely this is unacceptable? Goodnewsfortheinsane 21:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jirojuki Goto

Does anyone know anything about Jirojuki Goto, the man described in the article on the University of Oxford website as the world record holder for reciting Pi to 42,195?

There is nothing on Wikipedia and a quick Google search doesn't reveal much. Anotheruserhere (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

No wonder since his name is Hiroyuki Goto. --ざくら木 12:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)