User talk:Cnoguera
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[edit] Hi, Owdki
Hi, Owdki. No need to apologize, I wasn't really offended, just amazed (try to imagine yourself in an analogous situation: you arrive at a new place willing to do something good, and suddenly you discover that you are just another example of a boring stereotype...). Yes, indeed, it was clear that you were making fun (and complaining at the same time), not trying to offend anybody. Anyway, in just a few days taking a look about what is going on in Wikipedia in Catalonia-related topics (in the broadest sense), reading articles, discussion pages and talk pages (since but also before I decided to participate) I realized many interesting things about the stupidity of some of my catalan colleagues that believe (at least sometimes it seems so) they are on a mission from God, but also something similar in the opposite part, when some other people assume the task of stopping them at any cost. One can extract many interesting consequences about the present state of things in some south-western corners of Europe. But, leaving every possible motivation aside, we all are (should be) here to work seriously and accurately trying to reach this ideal so-called NPOV (if I have understood something about what Wikipedia should be). See ya! --Cnoguera (talk) 14:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- =P Thanks for your kind words, Cnoguera. The most important thing now is your will and your illusion: protect 'em. I'm sure you are here for share your knowledge and build an encyclopedia. Keep on. That's the fundamental. But... beware of the gates of hell, or you'll be catched by the catalan Mandelbrot maze, full of Byzantine dead-end streets and long discussions about "si una quimera que bordonea en el vacío puede comer las segundas intenciones" ;)
- However, and trying to bring a drop of constructive critic, some of that "blindness" is reflected in some of your contributions, but I'll comment about your words expressed here only: you come from wp:ca. I cannot understand your surprise, as you say in the "new place" (wp:en), when you have already some experience in wp:ca. Haven't you seen any of those "many interesting things" there? There are "many interesting things" there, and some of them are being solved thanks to Dúnadan (I'm being sincere, Jimbo bless you, my friend), veeeeeery slowly and with a great effort. I have my opinion about the "opposite part". I'm in the "opposite part". I have my idea about what an encyclopedia is, but I don't want to bore you with my concerns nor discourage you. Quite the contrary, we'll agree unconditionally that we all are (should be) here to work seriously and accurately trying to improve the Wikipedia. Best wishes and happy editing.
- PD: how many times have you heard "territoris de parla catalana"? ;) --Owdki talk 23:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Hi again, Owdki. First, thank you for deflowering my user talk page! ;) Well, I confess that my surprise was a little rhetoric (I know very well which are the political conflicts in my country(ies)). But what I didn't know is that I would find them so well represented in the wp:en (which, in a sense is a very good sign that means that all of our sensibilities have good people working on Wikipedia). In fact, my experience in wp:ca is still quite short and moreover I have been mostly working on non-political topics and antivandalism patrolling. Finally, since you are offering some free constructive criticism I wouldn't like to miss the opportunity to hear 'em from "the opposite" part ;). So, let me ask you: in what respects am I showing "blindness"? And, what is the problem with the expression "territoris de parla catalana"? I am not sure to catch your point (maybe you mean you prefer it to "Països Catalans" or the other way around?). Salut! --Cnoguera (talk) 12:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
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- You're welcome! It has been my first experience! =D
- Oh, man! Hahaha... =D Don't give me a nip!... "political conflicts in my country(ies)". Right now we should work a consensus about these words (I'm kidding). Currently I'm taking a break and this nice interchange is disturbing me (no t'ho prenguis malament, I need this break, and may be when I return this catalan Mandelbrot maze will have changed a little). I promise you that we'll continue it. We'll be in touch: keep on, good luck and happy editing!
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- PD (summarizing the explanation): "The most used term when any politic connotation wants to be avoided is "catalan-speaking territories" (El terme més utilitzat quan es vol evitar qualsevol connotació política és «territoris de parla catalana», from wp:ca), neutral language for neutral contentses (PPCC is politics). --Owdki talk 07:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Don't worry, Owdki. I know some topics can be very exhausting if you are engaged long enough in never ending discussions, so if this is your case I will surely let you take your peaceful rest ;) Thank you anyway for your hints about the very issue of PPCC; I am realizing how much political connotation this expression is receiving from the "opposite part". So, see you next time! --Cnoguera (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, Owdki. Nice to see you are back in the discussion. Now I have seen your points crystal clear and they are of course enriching our current dispute in the article. Unfortunately I don't have much time right now to contribute. I hope to write something later. See you. --Cnoguera (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Owdki, you made some interesting comments [1] in the Països Catalans discussion page and then for some reason you erased them. Maybe you thought they would be ignored by us or something like this, but I think it would not have been the case. I understood they were a constructive criticism to my contributions (and those by Dunadan), and I always enjoy receiving clever, supported by reasoning and data, criticism. You were even showing us an extremely interesting Wikipedia essay where some guy was warning about the problem of nationalistic-minded editing in Wikipedia. I read it and happily I found that Catalonia-related articles were not among the examples cited by the author. We should be really careful and avoid the entries related to our culture from suffering this disease. I understand this warning at his full extend, i.e. as a warning against all kinds of nationalist manipulations of truth, no matter where they come from. Don't you think? It would be completely wrong and uncyclopedic, for instance, to write in our Països Catalans something like "The Catalan Countries are a nation without state, whose territories are nowadays divided into four different states....", this would be an obvious manipulation of facts and a defense of just one possible (and extremely controversial) point of view. But, for completely symmetric reasons, it would be wrong to write something like "The so-called països catalans are an illegal fallacy invented by catalan nationalists in order to push their independentist plans to obtain a sovereign and powerful state inside European Union". Of course, these are just extreme examples which all of us would agree to reject, but also small manipulation of things in one or the other direction must be avoided. That's why is so good to have people coming from different backgrounds in the discussions, to equilibrate things in such a way that each side keeps the opposite one from going too far, i.e. deviating from the NPOV. So, if what we really want to obtain here is this NPOV our writings must not be biased in any sense. We cannot claim that something is a nation when never has been constituted as such, but we also cannot deny the linguistic-cultural reality (I think that your proposal of creating the entry "Catalan-speaking countries" for the linguistic-cultural meaning and leave in "Països Catalans" only the political stuff would not faithful to reality, as it would neglect the real usages of the "Països Catalans" expression; if reality is complex, we must be able to deal with its complexity). I would like to work to obtain this equilibrium. These topics are not my professional and main interests and would be happy to devote my time to other topics, as I do in wp:ca, but I also would like wikipedia readers to find here neutral explanations about my country and culture.
Well, anyway, thanks for your comments (hopefully they are still in the history of the page). --Cnoguera (talk) 15:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Cnoguera. I've erased my last comment in your talk page for the sake of the buen rollo. Undoit if you think that it's necessary. Several nice points in your words, and several points for discussion. I'll try to make a summary and I'll comment in PPCC. Thank you again. Best. --Owdki talk 16:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Again, no need to apologize. I think I can understand what happened yesterday with your comments and sudden erasing. You are trying to bring your points to the discussion while being afraid that we will ignore them. You should not be worried about that. As I said, any reasonable argumentation is (should be) always welcome and helps our tasks here. Just state your views clearly and everything will be fine. If we disagree we will discuss, and finally we will produce some solution that, for sure, will not be what any of us would have produced alone but, probably, will be better. Parlant la gent s'entén, oi? --Cnoguera (talk) 17:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] clar i català
Fotre, Carles, vec que estàs lleugerament espés hui ;) Simplemente, com que tu deies que tots aqueixos són cosins germans, he continuat dient que les families, quan les coses es posen xungues, són les que tenen els disgustos més grans, pitjors que amb els amics i tal....ho pilles ara? :P Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 17:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sí, sí, ara ho pillo. xD Encara hi ha vegades que em falla l'anglés... De totes maneres, i veient que ets valencià, aquestes enganxades familiars no sembla que les haguem de tenir tu i jo. Ho dic perquè, malgrat que és evident que partim de punts de vista diferents, sembla que som capaços d'anar-ho reconduint a bon port. Això sí, calen unes bones dosis de paciència (mútua eh!, i penso també en les importants dosis de saliva digital que li he fet gastar a l'Owdki) ;) --Carles Noguera (talk) 17:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Hola Carles,
Just one by-the-way question. I am perfectly fine with your edits in Valencian introducing the concept of dialectS (plural).
The question is, shouldnt we use the same pattern in the Catalan language article? I mean, even if you consider only Catalonia proper, there are two major dialects which, actually, are more different between them than Valencian dialects are, respectively.
Should we change Catalan language article to include that dialectologic nuance there, too? or maybe should we remove this dialectologic nuance from Valencian, at least from the lead intro? Or maybe just "shut-your-mouth, Mountolive, you are such a hassle"? :D
Mountolive group using a loop of another pop group 21:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- Bon dia, Mountolive. You are right on your comment about differences between dialects being greater in Catalonia proper than in Valencia, sure. But I don't see how you propose to reflect it further in the articles. I have the impression that now everything is correct and acceptable. Let me elaborate. The main definitions in the corresponding articles are:
- Catalan pronounced /ˈkætəˌlæn/ (català IPA: [kətəˈla] or [kataˈla]) is a Romance language, the national language of Andorra, and a co-official language in the Spanish autonomous communities of the Balearic Islands, Catalonia and Valencia—where it is known as Valencian— and in the city of L'Alguer in the Italian island of Sardinia.
- Valencian (valencià) is the historical, traditional, and official name used in the Valencian Community (Spain) to refer to the language spoken therein, which is known elsewhere as Catalan (català). (BTW, now I realize I should do some more Use-mention edits here :D)
- In my opinion, both are crystal clear, correct and make no reference to dialectological stuff. The dialectogical system is explained later (section 4) of Catalan article. And the nuance I made on Valencian comes also later in the section entitled "Different meanings". So, in my opinion it is correct as it is now. But, of course, if I am misunderstanding something or if you think of a better solution, please let me know.
- Apa, que acabis de passar un bon cap de setmana i ja continuarem parlant-ne. --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- I have done some new minor edits. Please check them and correct if necessary. --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- Well, finally I reverted myself. I realized that carrying all the way the "set of varieties of" was boring and unnecessary. It is well explained later on. Sometimes my "ideals of precision" make things too complicated :D So thank you for expressing your concerns here, and my apologies for too many back-and-forth edits. --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No problemo! You were right in the first place and I was wrong: indeed, the 'set of dialects' thing was in the 'different meanings', something really obvious which I didnt realize of!.
I see that, after all, you removed this particular wording. It was ok either way (with or without that reference) so we are fine anyway...I guess I only wanted to talk in a civil way about those topics for a little while, and, for that, you=the man!
My apologies! Mountolive group using a loop of another pop group 23:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
