Talk:Christianity in India

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[edit] Syrian Christian Tradition

Um... Yeah, so, I'm gonna go ahead and modify "tradition of more than 2000 years" in re Syrian Christians, because that would mean the community was founded when Christ was, at the oldest, 6 years old.. And don't bitch to me about the actual year of Christ's birth because I'll just ignore you (you pretentious wad, whoever you are). Nearly 2000 years would be much better!Witnessforpeace 10:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit]

What? Why on earth should we use a number system that nobody outside India understands? What purpose is served by this? john k 15:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let me add again, Huh? The normal number system is understood by everybody likely to be reading wikipedia. Wikipedia should be for the benefit of users, not the convenience of editors (all of whom are clearly aware of the normal numbering system, anyway). john k 15:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm opening a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). john k 15:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If I may add, it's just a chance for editors to flex their know-it-all muscle, show everybody how smart they are... GG98

[edit] Other issues

The article should address the difficulties missionaries faced, and still face, in attempting to convert Hindus to Christianity: namely that many will readily accept Christ, but not give up the other gods -- it's common to see, in many "Christian" households, a shrine with a depiction of Jesus, but also various other Hindu gods. Badagnani 06:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. More input on that front is required. You said: It's common to see, in many "Christian" households, a shrine with a depiction of Jesus, but also various other Hindu gods. - Could you elaborate that a bit? I myself am a Christian (from India), but I know of no such picture. Perhaps you are refering to the depiction of the Gods of Hinduism, Christianity and Islam together in one picture frame? Such a depiction is very common in India; and is just a reiteration of the Indian weltanschauung, which stresses on unity in diversity.-- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}13:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Urdu

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus. I think it would be a great idea to make mention on Roman Urdu on this page or a related one as it is used by many Indian Christians. Does anyone else think this would be plausible? I added a link to the Roman Urdu article on the See Also section for now. Thanks. Jdas07 20:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indians who converted

Not all Indians who converted to Christianity in India were Hindu. Many Indians in Kerala were Jews. Mochamalu 22:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The incorrect data was added by a new editor. I've reverted the POV edits. Thanks for pointing out.--thunderboltz^(Deepu) 14:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It was mentioned that of those who converted, part of them voluntarily and the other half, with force. Except for the inquisition which happened in Goa centuries ago, What modern day examples can the editor quote from Indian diaspore. -- IAK 23:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoax?

Why does the article contain a disclaimer indicating it's suspected of being a hoax? Tom e r ^talk 12:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

because isolated incidents are being used to foment bias. Besides, the issues there are not related to religion but communalism, which is a different matter from religion. Rumpelstiltskin223 18:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

But what does that have to do with hoaxes? Tom e r ^talk 21:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The hoax is in the implicit claim that this has anything to do with Christianity (since it is written in the Christianity in India article). This was put there by a group Islamist editors and their socks as a revenge for their tendentious edits to other articles which got reverted by legitimate wikipedians (this is why the article is locked presently) and it will be removed once the article is unlocked. This section belongs in articles on Indian communalism, not in an article on religion.Rumpelstiltskin223 21:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. I'm tempted to unlock the article and take that crap out of there. Tom e r ^talk 21:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The hoax tag should be taken out and replaced with an "accuracy" or "disputed" tag, as the hoax tag causes the whole article to be categorized as a hoax. Tubezone 19:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. As it is, that's how I happened upon this article to begin with... I would have removed the tag, but didn't bcz at the last moment, I noticed the article is presently protected. Tom e r ^talk 06:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resolving editing disputes.

What are the disputes, who's involved, and how do the involved parties intend to move forward? Tom e r ^talk 21:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no dispute, just a revenge edit-war, see this complaint and this RFCU. Rumpelstiltskin223 21:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I ran into this article through Category:Wikipedia cleanup. Concerning the Hindu Christian Conflict section I would like to edit it down to those facts supported by the sources only, so that I may remove both tags currently in place there, i.e.: Not verified & hoax. →James Kidd (contr/talk/email) 05:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Please propose versions of the disputed section here. Tom e r ^talk 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

See below. →James Kidd (contr/talk/email) 09:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed section changes to Hindu Christian Conflict

The following are my suggested changes to the Hindu Christian Conflict section.

The Government of the state of Tripura has uncovered evidence to support the assertion that the Baptist Church of Tripura has been supporting the terrorist group National Liberation Front of Tripura, a violent separatist group ~~that has massacred thousands of Hindus in the region~~^{[citation needed]} that has banned Hindu festivals by force .^[1]

The Baptist Church of Tripura was initially set up by missionaries from New Zealand in the 1940s. Despite their efforts, even until the 1980s, only a few thousand people in Tripura had converted to Christianity.

In the aftermath of one of the worst ethnic riots, the NLFT was born in 1989—allegedly with the help of the Baptist Church. Since then, the NLFT has been advancing its cause through armed rebellion ^[2].

I could not verify the following paragraph: The Hindu Nationalist Sangh Parivar has been at odds with Christians in India^{[citation needed]}. Evangelical Christians in central and eastern India were recovering from injuries Wednesday, December 27, 2006 after Hindu Nationalists attacked them for singing Christmas carols^{[citation needed]}, Christian leaders said Pastor Phillip Jagdalla of the Jehovah Pentecostal Church in Chhattisgarh's Raipur area was accused of distributing toffee (Candy) to Sunday school students and therefore "was badly beaten" up by police, the group claimed. Evangelism effectively outlawed in Tamil Nadu state [1].

I could not verify the following paragraph:Many Christians in India regard anti-conversion laws passed by some states in India as a persecution of their religion. Although the same christian missionaries themselves asked for a similar legislation in light of Bnei Menashe controversy.

Several states in India controlled by the Hindu nationalist party, such as Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu, have passed laws prohibiting conversion.^[3]

I could not verify the following information:In October 2002, governor of Tamil Nadu issued an ordinance aimed at preventing people from converting to Christianity, on the grounds that such conversions occur due to fraud. The accused may be sentenced to up to three years in jail if convicted of such a crime. It should be noted that the majority of instances of persecutions of Christians in India do not involve the native Saint Thomas Christians, but rather Latin Rite Roman Catholics and Protestants. This ordinance was reportedly later repealed.

I could not verify the following paragraph: In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.

→James Kidd (contr/talk/email) 09:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The following was removed from the Hindu Christian Conflict section:

The cause of the terror groups are supported by leadership of the American Baptist Churches USA. John Sundquist of International Ministries ABC/USA stated support for these groups in a release on Feb. 26, 1998. ^[4]

the reasons is I refered to the source[2] a google group discussion which had the press release posted. I followed the link in the posting where I could find the actual press release on their website, [3] however the link in the posting to the posters site lead me to a page not found. If the site can be reached and contains the press release, please put it back in. →James Kidd (contr/talk/email) 06:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to this press release ^[5]. I have reinserted the statement, but am not sure it belongs where I reinserted it. Can someone take a look and fix it? Kkm5848 (talk) 06:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I took a look at the ABC press release ^[6] referenced above. The press release shows that the leadership of the American Baptist Churches USA supports a separatist group in Nagaland. But the included Wikipedia paragraph makes it sound like the ABC supports all kinds of terrorism in India, specifically in Tripura. The ABC press release says nothing about Tripura or any other Indian state. The Tripura rebellion has a completely different character than the separatist movement in Nagaland, where the population is 90% Christian. The paragraph is grossly misleading! Here is the entire paragraph: "The Government of the state of Tripura has allegedly uncovered evidence to support the assertion that the Baptist Church of Tripura has been supporting the terrorist group National Liberation Front of Tripura, a violent separatist group that has attacked and killed Hindus in the region and that has banned Hindu festivals by force.[18] The cause of the terror groups are supported by leadership of the American Baptist Churches USA. John Sundquist of International Ministries ABC/USA stated support for these groups in a release on Feb. 26, 1998.[19]" There is an issue about the local Baptist church in Tripura being involved in the NLFT, but there is nothing to tie the two Baptist groups together. The term "these groups" is used to make it seem like the ABC supports NLFT, but the press release says nothing of the kind. - Joe Klein jfklein33 (talk) 11:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.172 (talk)

The removed portion Many Christians in India regard anti-conversion laws passed by some states in India as a persecution of their religion. Although the same christian missionaries themselves asked for a similar legislation in light of Bnei Menashe controversy. is, in my experience, true...but trying to source how "many Christians ... regard ... laws" is pretty difficult, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is trying to determine how many "many" really is. It is also true that the greatest opposition in the Bnei Menashe saga has been mounted by Christians who, rationally or not, apparently fearing the possibility of losing their fresh lot of converts, petitioned the Government to step in, mischeivously mischaracterizing conversion to Judaism as "proselytizing". This is detailed in several letters written by leaders of the Bnei Menashe to both the Indian and Israeli governments, some of which can be found online. I know of one off-hand, posted on kulanu's website. Tom e r ^talk 08:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC) P.S., I tried to get the link to the letter I'm thinking of, but Kulanu's site seems to be experiencing the hiccoughs this evening... I've gotta get to bed...if nobody finds the link by tomorrow, I'll try again. Tom e r ^talk 08:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Here we go. Enjoy. :-) Tom e r ^talk 06:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The above section makes it seem that Hindus and Christians hate each other in the subcontinent. But there are loads of effort made in both sides to amalgamate practices and theology [4],[5],

[6],[7],[8]. If there is no objection on creating a section on Indian influence on Christianity and talk about the amalgamation/hybid of philosophies of Indian Religions with Christianity and reduce the weightage given to conflicts (I am not keen on mentioning them, but will eventually do since it seems some editors will opose its removal). Views on it are welcome. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 21:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The section is far too long, in violation of WP:UNDUE; it also suffers from WP:RECENTISM; although parts of it are referenced, others are not, and the references are not of uniform quality. I have cut it down in size, though not as much as I should. If anyone wants to spin it out into a separate article, as is due a notable subject, they are welcome to do so. However, I do not see the need for such a long section here. Relata refero (talk) 12:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, if anyone wants it back in, perhaps they should discuss it here first? Relata refero (talk) 23:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Updated information in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India part

Here is the newest version, please feel free to add your comments and ideas

Roman Catholics Latin Rite 13,217,160 , Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church 3,674,115 , Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church 408,725 = total number of Roman Catholics 17.3 million members

There is not duplication these are three different enteties of Roman Catholic Church Pakhomovru (talk) 10:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporary situation

A Roman Catholic Church in Kochi.

The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population.

Majority of Indian Christians are Roman Catholics 17.3 million members ^[7], including 408,725 members of the Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church^[8] and 3,674,115 of the Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church^[9]. In January 1993 the Syro-Malabar Church and in February 2005 Syro-Malankara Church were raised to the status of major archiepiscopal churches by Pope John Paul II. The Syro-Malabar Church is the second largest among 22 Eastern Catholic Churches who accept the pope (Bishop of Rome) as the "visible head of the whole church".

Most Protestant denominations are represented in India, as a result of missionary activities throughout the country. The largest Protestant denomination in the country is the Church of South India, since 1947 a union of Presbyterian, Reformed, Congregational, Methodist, and Anglican congregations with approximately 3.8 million members^[10]. A similar Church of North India had 1.25 million members^[11]. (These churches are in full communion with the Anglican Communion.) The Mar Thoma Church has 900,000 members^[12], and derives from the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which numbers 2 million ^[13] and is in communion with the Anglicans, but not a full member. In 1961, the evangelical wing of the church came out of Mar Thoma Church and formed the St. Thomas Evangelical Church of India which has 10,000 members ^[14]. Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar rites 2,200,000 members^[15], respectively. There were about 1,267,786 million Lutherans^[16], 648,000 Methodists^[17], and 1,850,000 Baptists ^[18] . Pentecostalism, another denomination of Protestantism, is also a rapidly growing religion in India. It is spreading greatly in northern India and the southwest area, such as Kerala. The major Pentecostal churches in India are the Assemblies of God, India Pentecostal Church of God (IPC) with 900,000 members.^[19] New Apostolic Church founded in 1969, with total adherents of 1,448,209.^[20] The New Life Fellowship (founded in 1968) now has approximately 480,000 adherents, and the Manna Full Gospel churches and ministries (founded in 1968 with connections to Portugal) has 275,000.^[21] Evangelical Church of India now has over 680 churches with a 250,000 community.^[22] Another prominent group is the Brethrens. They are known in different names Plymouth Brethren, Indian Brethren, Kerala brethren. Presbyterian Church of India has 823,456 members.^[23] Nagaland Baptist Church Council has 307,949 members.^[24]

During the twentieth century, the fastest growing Christian communities have been located in the northeast, among the Khasis, Mizos, Nagas, and other hill tribes. Today Christians are most prevalent in the northeast, and in the southwestern states of Kerala and Goa. Indian Christians have contributed significantly to and are well represented in various spheres of national life. They are currently chief ministers of the states like Andhra Pradesh, Nagaland, Mizoram, and Meghalaya, and they were chief ministers earlier of Kerala, Manipur, Goa, and Chattisgarh. In the powerful election committee of the ruling Indian National Congress party, they take four out of twenty places.

The purchasing power of the Christian community in India was estimated at about $15 billion in 2005 (or 2 per cent of the national total).

**Christianity in India**
Church Name	Population
Roman Catholics Latin Rite^[25]	13,217,160
Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church^[26]	3,674,115
Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church^[27]	408,725
Church of South India^[28]	3,800,000
New Apostolic Church^[29]	1,448,209
Church of North India^[30]	1,250,000
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church^[31]	2,500,000
Mar Thoma Church^[32]	900,000
Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar^[33]	2,200,000
Lutherans^[34]	1,267,786
Methodists^[35]	648,000
Baptists^[36]	1,850,000
India Pentecostal Church of God^[37]	900,000
Indian Brethren^[38]	1,000,000
St. Thomas Evangelical Church^[39]	1,000,000
Presbyterian Church of India^[40]	823,456
New Life Fellowship^[41]	480,000
Nagaland Baptist Church Council^[42]	307,949
Manna Full Gospel^[43]	275,000
Evangelical Church ^[44]	250,000

[edit] Question for User: Pakhomovru

Can you please explain why you are blanket-reverting changes to the article (diff) and deleting other user's comments from this talk-page (my comments, Wikiality's comments) ? Abecedare (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Expand to see some of deleted content

Deleted comments

I have updated data and numbers in this part based on the wikipedia source statistics, eveything is fair and clear. Please add your comments or questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru (talk • contribs) 16:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Please have a look at the last sentence of this core Wikipedia policy. You CANNOT CITE Wikipedia as a source within Wikipedia. Please find reliable external third party source for your claim. As Abecedare recommended please have a look at WP:RS and WP:Verify before reverting. And, btw which article are you citing. You cited this article in Religion in India‎ and Major religions in India‎. Are we going in circles? Thanks Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 17:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I have added references, these references are to the wiki but comming from the external sources you can check your self we can discuss each Church number by number, just tell the name of the church and we can discuss number of adherents and where do we get that number Pakhomovru (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice work collecting the sources! The section is greatly improved thanks to your efforts. Note though that I have removed the total from the table because it both violated wikipedia's policies on synthessis and (more importnatly) was simply incorrect due to double-counting. For example, Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and Syro-Malankara Catholic Church members were being counted as both members of the individual churches, as well as Roman Catholic (the table can perhaps be formatted to make these relationships clear). That is possibly the reason why your addition was yielding an inflated number compared to the census of India statistics. Abecedare (talk) 22:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I ahve taken a stab at reformatting the table (no content change). Please feel free to correct any errors I may have introduced in the classification. Abecedare (talk) 23:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the things you did, look numbers are ok and no doubling is there I would revert the changes back and we can discuss —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru (talk • contribs) 09:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleted table

**Christianity in India**
Family	Population	Churches	Members
Roman Catholics	13,217,160^[45]	Syro-Malabar Church	3,674,115^[46]
Roman Catholics	13,217,160^[45]	Syro-Malankara Church	408,725^[47]
Protestants		Church of South India	3,800,000^[48]
Protestants		Church of North India	1,250,000^[49]
Oriental Orthodox		Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church	2,500,000^[50]
Oriental Orthodox		Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar	2,200,000^[51]
Pentecostal		India Pentecostal Church of God	900,000^[52]
Evangelicalism		Indian Brethren	1,000,000^{[citation needed]}
		Evangelical Church of India	250,000^[53]
		St. Thomas Evangelical Church	1,000,000^[54]
		Mar Thoma Church	900,000^[55]
Lutherans	1,267,786^[56]
Methodists	648,000^[57]
Baptists	1,850,000^[58]
		New Apostolic Church	1,448,209^[59]
		New Life Fellowship	480,000^[60]
		Manna Full Gospel	275,000^[61]

Sorry I did it so fast in general you were mixing churches, please have a look how it is now, if you are not agree you we can discuss it Pakhomovru (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

There are quite a few pictures of Churches in the article. Wouldn't be a better idea to make a collage of a few, rather than having them placed all over. There seems to be no best place to keep them, since it all depends on the size of your system screen. I can't think of anything better than making a collage. If we could make a list of prominent Churches in India then we can just make one or a couple of collages for this article. Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 20:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population

The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population, this comes from the break down of the major christian churches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru (talk • contribs) 16:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that statistic, which is contradicted by the most authoritative source on the topic: the 2001 Indian census ? Abecedare (talk) 16:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The break down is on the page look your selfPakhomovru (talk) 19:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have already mentioned the double-counting problem with that data in the comment you deleted earlier. That aside, wikipedia policies prohibit synthesis. Abecedare (talk) 19:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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