Talk:Chen style tai chi chuan
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[edit] Irrelevant Link
In the first paragraph there is a sentance: "The five traditional family styles tend to retain the original martial applicability of tai chi teaching methods." The word "martial" links to a poet rather than any kind of discussion of the martial arts.
[edit] List of Wikipedians by martial art add yourself!
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
[edit] Old romanization and expansion
I know you guys want to keep main TaiJiQuan article in old romanization.
The Chen styles is relative new to the west, and most new literature is in PinYin. Unless you all wildly complain I will be using that to explain alot of things.
And allready alot of temrs in the article is in PinYin like Chenjiagou, henan etc.
I am going to expand this article greatly, and make more emphasis on the style and less on the persons who teach it and their lineage. It will be an too great task to find old romanization for all the chinese expressions. This should not be an article for curious Yang stylists(as I feel it is now) only, but a general article about the Chen martial art styles.
A human 04:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, I started it a long time ago, hoping a Chen stylist would come along and fill it out a bit. I'm a Wu stylist, though, myself, so it would be great to get some first hand input. While technical info would be interesting, we have to remember what Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and not get too much like an instruction manual. Biographies of famous Chen family teachers would be very welcome at the redlinks in the article, too. Cheers! --Fire Star 05:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] External links that promote organizations
There are 3 link now, they all go to association homepages. Allthough those pages have some info on style and history they are plastered with commercials to buy courses, books and DVDs. And also to show how great their particular teachers are. I am going to remove them all and replace them with links to sites that write about the styles not the people who train them.
A human 05:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Variants
I am initially going to add the list of variants to the main article, but I feel they should later be expanded and put in seperate articles.
A human 05:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- im pretty sure there are other forms in chen style taiji quan. They are not as popular and historical as the main forms explained here, but perhaps we could list them here as just a generic list of other forms much as has been done with the weapons --Blckavnger 17:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
What other forms are you talking about? VanTucky 00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- in particular i was thinking of the 38 section form supposdly created by Chen Xiaowang combining xin jia and lao jia movements. Also there are competition forms that are standarized in some parts of the world. However, since i do not know how much they are practiced im not sure if it should be included. I am most familiar with lao jia and i know the 38 section. i do not know if the 38 is practiced enough to be listed; i dont think there should be a description, just a mention along with competition forms (with a little note that they are not traditional). --Blckavnger 17:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Similar to the original tai chi article, I added a "modern forms" section. This can be added on to include any shortened or competition forms. though the article should continue to focus on chen family (and their disciples) teachings, just like how yang style page focuses on the yang family origins. VanTucky 19:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
HuLeiJia 忽雷架(Sudden Thunder Form) created based on ZhaoBaoJia is also a variant which may be found in Taiwan (Only recently appear in Main land China). This art is lost in China during the Cultural revolution. I think it was created by Master Li Jin Yan (Student of Master Chen Qin Ping).
At what point does a sub-style break off and become a recongnized sub-style, rather than the particular take on the same teachings by a certain teacher? Is it simply the act of a particular teacher breaking away and declaring a new style? Back in the day, there was no video recording or youtube, so there must have been a lot of divergence simply because it was impossible to set a benchmark. But now we should be able to document the current state of the art, and comment on future variations, and reference archive material in articles. danielpoon
The Xin Yi Hun Yuan section seem too big, and out of place. It is listed along side sub headings, such as 'The Xiao jia Tradition'. If I understand it correctly, Xin Yi Hun Yuan is still part of the Xin Jia style, and does not warrent an entry. Im pretty new to wikipedia, so I don't know if I should just go and delete it. Im going to move it into a sub-heading under 'Xin jia'. daniel poon
[edit] The Chenjiaguo people
I do realise that the Chenjiaguo people like Chen Bing, Ren Guangyi and Chen Xiaoxing are very visible in the US., has published many english language books and websites. But in China they are not considered anything special. So there is no reason to call Chen Xiaowang: "the standard-bearer for the Chen family's 19th generation" and similar propaganda. Repeating it a thousand times does not make it so. A human 15:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually they are quite well thought of in china. The four tigers/buddas draw huge crowds at there seminars. They all posess high official rank within the national martial ranking system. Chen Bin (chen zhenglei's son)told me they enjoy celebrity status in china. The billboards showing the group of them in varous postures that take up 3 to 5 stories of space seem to bear this out (yes I saw this with my own eyes when visiting). However, I agree with you on the standard-bearer nonesense. mlmalone 19:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Its is also regional. China is a big place. For example, in Beijing where Wushu is big, Chen Village may have such a big name. Resident Beijing Tai Chi experts will tend to get more press there. Regarding standard bearer - there are two aspects. One is that the standard bearer should be the most skillful person of their generation. The other is the position of that person within the socio-political organization that is the traditional Chinese family. We are all going to have differing opinions about who has the best skill, but the position held in the family by certain Chen Village names is pretty clear. I was in Chen Village for a year, and in my time there, there was a large ceremony at Chen Fake's grave. The person leading that ceremony was the so-called 'standard-bearer', though I don't know if he uses that name himself danielpoon 22:31, 5 March 2007
[edit] No mention of silk reeling
We've got a mention weapons.... But shouldn't we also say something like "[Chen style] places special emphasis on the silk reeling Chi-gung exercise set to strengthen the body"?
Also, should we include something like "[Chen style] is the most external of the internal t'ai chi styles, with many martial applications of the forms obvious to complete beginners to a greater extent than other t'ai chi styles."?
Triponi 13:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC) Insertformulahere
First, an internal art is an internal art because it trains the internal chi (I don't remember what the exact classification of this chi is). This means that an art either is internal or is not internal no degrees. Second, if you are focused in on the obvious application then you have missed dozens of other in the same move. mlmalone 19:30, 1 march 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Yang and Chen
So I guess I am yang stylist somewhat confused by the chen claim to be the original form, i always understood that the yang family practised a guarded internal style that was very effective and a servant learned by stealth and he was allowed to teach to the ROW? Correct me if i am wrong?
- The one thing most agree on is that Yang Luchan learned from Chen Changxing starting around 1820 or so. There are many legendary stories about that process, with actual surviving records of Yang's career dating from 1850 or so, when Yang began teaching the Manchu Imperial family and bannermen in Beijing. --Fire Star 火星 01:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] External Links
wikipedia is not a link farm, and though many of those are interesting personally, I plan on scaling down the external links section. One or two examples of each form is sufficient. my criteris for which versions to include will be video technical quality and compelteness as all are good examples of form. VanTucky 18:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Cleanup is finished, please do not add any external video links. Please discuss before replacing. I kept most of the applications videos b/c they all show different versions/ways to apply the form. I deleted the free sparring bit b/c it looks choreographed (it is a PRC government documentary remember?). The fa jin video is already on the linked Fa Jin page. Thank you. VanTucky 20:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The videos you removed are all the most recognized and high level teachers in china. Why not have a large number of video links? It showcases many different teachers as opposed to the promotion of one and specifically it demonstraits personal preferences/differences in the same forms. The comparison of multiple teachers demonstraiting low middle and high frame and the differences that I have found by close comparison have greatly accelerated my own practice. The Fa jin video is specifically of a chen master and in my opinion belongs on the chen page as well as the fajin page. What do you think?
I suppose it depends on how expansive and informative we want the Chen Tai Chi entry to be. Mlmalone 2/23/07
Its not about expansion. External links are not expanding the enclyclopedic content of the article. Too many videos of the same form or repeated videos from other subject pages is not allowed. VanTucky 21:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
If I explain the difference people should be looking for and the relevance to the practice it would expand the reference value of the article. Video links of masters do expand the encyclopedic content of the articles because this is a physical art which words cannot do justice to and most modern/electronic encyclopedias include extensive video content. Could you provide the link to the video content rules? Mlmalone
the guidelines for external links can be found at WP:EL. notice the first four suggestions...
1. Links should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links, or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links. 2. Rather than creating a long list of external links, editors should consider linking to a related category in the Open Directory Project (also known as DMOZ) which is devoted to creating relevant directories of links pertaining to various topics. (See {{Dmoz}}.) If there is no relevant category, you can request help finding or creating a category by placing {{Directory request}} on the article's talk page. 3. Try to avoid linking to multiple pages from the same website; instead, try to find an appropriate linking page within the site.
wikipedia is not a how-to guide. descriptions of the subtle differences in style between the contemporary masters is not what this article is about. its an informative guide for those who know little to nothing about makes Chen style, Chen style. Also to be considered is that videos on YouTube are often copywright violations. VanTucky 00:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
10/3/2007 I change the link for xinjia yilou from Chen Zhenlei to old footage of Chen Xiaowang. Full disclosure - I studied with Chen Xiaowang. However I though as a performance it was a good reference, since it shows the form in a very raw state - not a public demonstration, nor a instructional video. It also shows the form before Chen Xiaowang really starts to make it his own.
Your personal preference has no bearing on the selection, besides that the original is better quality video, and if you look closely it says at the beginning of the video that its Lao Jia. I personally think that is correct, just looking at his postures.but to be safe lets stick with the first video that is clearer. also, like I mention in my edit summary, Feng Zhiqiang's style is a STYLE recognised by other Chen masters as a separate facet of the Chen arts not just a part of the Xin Jia routine. VanTucky 04:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Feng's style is recognised as a seperate style within chen style (same type of difference as the old and new frame) but it is also recognized as an offshoot of the Xin Jia large frame. So it should really be in the big frame tradition section but as a seperate style entry right below the Xin Jia entry. Also note that Feng classifies it as big frame in his quote within the Hun Yuan section. Mlmalone 17:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Zhaobao style on the other hand is not considered part of the chen family's tai chi tradition and is not linked to the official chen tai chi lineage in chen village. It has its own page and its link to chen is a substyle of a substyle which is very far to link as a substyle of chen. The Zhaobao page also states that the style has chen family influences but this doesn't mean it was created by a chen master which is the requirement for a link into the chen lineage. Anyone disagree?
Zhaobao is linked on the page not bc it is a Chen form, but bc A: it is established as a part of Chen Qingping lineage. and B: As a style that is obscure to Westerners, it is often mistaken to be Chen. So for the point of differentiating it, we keep the mention and link. VanTucky 15:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
p.s. please remember to sign your statements with four tildes.
Ok lets make sure that the entry says that though. Mlmalone 15:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There is already a link and a mention of Zhaobao in the chen village section. It doesn't merit its own section within chen because it has its own page. This seems more appropriate as zhaobao is not considered a chen art by the chen family. Mlmalone 20:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This historical vidio clip of Chen Zhaokui may be worth including http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrAczAE66w0 . Its short, but its the only bit of footage I know of from way back. Could do with some still photos of Chen Fake as well. danielpoon
its very interesting, but it might better be included in a Chen Zhaokui bio stub. We already have plenty of links showing the forms. VanTucky 22:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC) p.s. please sign your edits with four tildes
Hi guys, my first entry here but I have been following discussions/edits for the last 6 months. I too believe the video links section is getting out of hand. Neutrality principle seems to be being compromised with over representations of certain figures. Also I note the arbitrary replacing of perfectly adequate pre-existing video links on well-intentioned but dubiously subjective grounds. While the occassional honest "self disclosure" is heartening it doesn't really make the situation any more desirable. A couple of suggestions I am thinking of: limit direct video links to verifiably internationally influential 19th generation Chen Masters (comparisons are good); move these to another page - perhaps coming off the generic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tai_Chi_Chuan_forms page.Blue Horizen 10:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, thats a good idea, but the list page shouldnt have much external links on it. The truth is: if you look at WP:EL it advises against using links to YouTube and similar sites bc of the ease of copywright infringement. Its not really good to have all those form links. I think I'll be downsizing it. VanTucky 16:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Youtube links
Oh, just checked out WP:EL again and it seems that the newest policy is that the video is expressly in copywright infringement per a complaint by its owner, then its okay. I dont think that the Chen family members being in the videos are compromising neutrality, they are just the best examples of full form videos available on the net. VanTucky 17:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Re new WP:EL that makes a lot of sense. Youtube (or similar concept) is here to stay, the common people have voted with their mouse-clicks. I am sure we are quite capable of recognising and rejecting infringement video links. For Tai Chi forms/Master appraisal Youtube is an amazing international breakthrough in search for knowledge. Blue Horizen 22:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
New Page for Chen Master Video Links?
I agree, the page is starting to have an EL area that rivals the body! All the same I believe we still need to reference the influential Chen 18th/19th gen masters somewhere and guide readers to learn/compare forms/masters for themselves. If I get a bit of time over Easter I'd like to create a new page devoted to this which can be referenced from a single link here. It is very hard for Chen newbies to sort out who is who, who has high credibility/influence and what is mainstream and what is not. Blue Horizen 22:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Neutrality of External links
Re "neutrality" above looks like I didn't express myself well. The guys listed there already I have no prob with whatsoever (though 20th gen Chen Ziqiang may be a worthy but "thin edge of the wedge" trip into subjective choices, i.e. if him why not another ten 20th gen members as well). Blue Horizen 22:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
What I really meant was an imbalance of spread - almost 50% of the links refer to Chen Zhenglei. I think he is great, but the numeric over preponderance suggests strong promotional editing bias has occurred. What is to stop me going thru and again replacing all these with ZTC (my Chinese wife is his indoor disciple) - and the war goes on. Also, while it is great to see ZTC down representing Small Frame I find that strange. Of course he is worthy of it but this tradition is not his chosen specialty and Small Frame Chen Village Masters are surely worthy of this honour - something ZTC himself would probably advise if asked. So that's what I really meant by some absence of neutrality there. Blue Horizen 22:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
As far as space goes, the general suggestion is that if you feel the article is imbalanced in some content areas, the goal should be to expand those in need of it and not just whittle down other areas. As to neutrality, I totally see your point about replacing them/vandals. thats just part of stewarding WP unfortunately. But the CZL videos (and I dont think he's that great, in fact I think his fa jing sucks compared to many of his peers) are there just bc alot of his instruction videos have been released on the net and are high quality demos. That seems to be it. If you can find high quality vids that are complete and not of CZL or CXW (maybe replace the Xinjia with Ma Hong, thats what he's famous for anyway) then go ahead. VanTucky 23:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I put CZL videos up because they were available (Though, I do study with him). I put ZTC in small frame because he was the only recognizable demo I could find. As for Chen Ziqiang it was the most physical throwing someone to the ground fast, nonteaching type demo, of push hands I could find. New video is regularly being made available so if you find something better or have something you can post to youtube which is better, please add or replace it. Van: I'd withhold judgement on CZL's fa jing. Mlmalone 19:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Since some have discussed wanting more diversity of demo vids, I replaced some of the CZL vids and some others for diversity and quality. The hard part was finding complete vids instead of part 1 and 2 ones. I made the laojia er lu of chen bing. I made the xinjia yi lu the cool 10 yr old student of wang xian. I think most everyone could agree this kid is just as good or better than alot of older Western students, and its good to show that taiji is for everyone not just the old and infirm. I replaced the xinjia cannon fist with wang hai jun bc its a more complete and closer up camera angle than the one of chen yu onstage. any objections? VanTucky 22:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] new section
I created a new section discussing martial application. I tried to keep it down to why Chen tai chi focuses on self-defense and what general types of technique are used commonly. Feel free to expand it of course, but I hope we can keep from getting into "how-to guide" territory in describing techniques . VanTucky 20:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Form Confusion
There seems to be some confusion in regards to "Old Frame" Form for with "New Frame" and "Cannon Fist" form. From what I understand "New Frame" and "Cannon Fist" are NOT the same form.
The Video Example section on the unarmed forms has to be reorganized. Its simply mismatched and confusing.
-Bill
January 4, 2007
[edit] Citations
Hello everyone. There are a lot of mentions of anecdotal or legendary stories in the article, but few secondary (or even primary) sources. I've added a couple, but we need one for practically every legend if we want it to stay in the article. Cheers! --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 15:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
