Talk:Chaco Culture National Historical Park

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	Chaco Culture National Historical Park is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
February 10, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted

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Contents 1 2 Chaco Canyon sites dates 3 Sun Dagger 4 rebuilt? 5 Alignment 6 Gigapixel photo of Pueblo Bonito 7 Infobox: World Heritage Site 8 Warfare, violence and cannibalism 9 chao canyon 10 Dr. Wirt H. Wills

[edit]

Original draft was almost completely taken from the US Government Web site linked to the page. Additional information added. Your edits and comments welcome. WBardwin 06:31, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, you've done a great job expanding the article. I would also like to see the article expand upon the 10 major sites and a discussion of the current park. There's a lot to add here. --Viriditas | Talk 10:29, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chaco Canyon sites dates

In the section Chaco Canyon sites there are a couple of references to the 1100's. From reading Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), I believe this should be either 1100s (which is the decade 1100-1109, note: no apostrophy) or 12th century. I'm guessing the author intended 12th century, but could someone who knows the dates better please fix this? --66.216.68.28 21:17, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sun Dagger

Why is there no mention of the Sun Dagger here -- or indeed, in Wikipedia at all? It's the most famous feature of Chaco Canyon, thanks largely to the movie of the same name. ShawnVW 04:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It's mentioned in Fajada Butte; a link of which appears in the third paragraph of the lead in this article. —Viriditas | Talk 05:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rebuilt?

are the structures depcted on this page rebuilt? i don't think they could have withstood a thousand years of weather

Justforasecond 15:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

No, they are nearly entirely original. The National Park Service sometimes coats them with a protective material, I believe, but the structures themselves are original. They are very impressive and were probably built better than most buildings today. If you are in New Mexico, it is worth a visit. Nationalparks 16:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

And even so, the Park Service has only had control for less than 100 years, so they withstood time until then entirely on their own. Nationalparks 16:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

They were largely buried, which no doubt helped preserve their architectural features. In addition to the Park Service adding protective material, they have had to completely restore some walls that have collapsed since their excavation. Most of the structures depicted on this page have not been rebuilt, though. Benhocking 16:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alignment

Why is there not any mention of the way that the cities , their walls, and the roads freqently line up exactly with the paths of the sun and moon? Or that a large portion of the "rooms" are sealed off and would have originally been inacessible? Or that there are very few large trash mounds, which would have been necessary if as large a population as is frequently claimed actually did live there? All of this pointing to a more religious purpose for the site? I belive NOVA did a show on all of this... 71.196.218.82

I saw these discussed in a documentary "The Mystery of Chaco Canyon" [1] 2000, narrated by Robert Redford. They did mention that underlying rooms seemed to be sealed off or inaccessible, suggesting they were built primarily to raise higher rooms up. I didn't gather that they were 100% sure that the rooms were sealed off and unused, but that the soil in the rooms lacked organic signatures (ash, debris, etc.) consistent with human usage, and had no ventilation and thus it's impossible to have a fire in them. Beyond this, the structures appeared to be designed in a way that maximized their external visual impact, rather than their usability. For example, walls with no obvious use were positioned in front of cliffs in a way that makes the structure look much grander. This suggests that perhaps the empty lower rooms simply served as support structures to enable the buildings to reach 4-5 stories in height, in order to achieve an aesthetic impact or to emphasize the astrological alignments of the building (or both).

The documentary said that they found large man-made mounds near Chaco, but their composition was not what was expected. There was hardly any organic matter found, which rules them out as trash mounds. Instead, the mounds appeared to have been built from a huge number of intentionally shattered pottery. The culture held that by shattering pottery, it was an offering to the otherworld. Thus it would seem that pilgrims came to Chaco with offerings of pottery, which they broke and left in the mounds.

They also showed evidence that a number of outlying buildings - some great distances apart - were aligned with Chaco along astronomical lines. For example, the main great walls of Chaco align perfectly with walls, centerlines, etc. on buildings across the valley. These alignments correspond to the paths of the moon and sun at various astronomically significant points, such as the lunar maximum and minimum rise and set, and the solar equinox. The mapping of the lunar cycle is unique among ancient cultures; it takes many generations to track, and serves no functional purpose like tracking of the sun would, but could have been a very important part of Chacoan religion. Bryce 21:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gigapixel photo of Pueblo Bonito

I would like to add http://www.xrez.com/gallery/chaco/xRez_chaco.html to the links. It contains the most detailed photo of Pueblo Bonito ever taken, it is 4 gigapixels and web-viewable. You can see every individual stone in the structure. I did not add it myself because there was a note in the links section to bring this up in "discussion" before adding links.

I agree with its addition. If others disagree, they can also comment. Thanks. Saravask 23:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox: World Heritage Site

Mediation participants: Joey80 and Saravask Mediator: Alan.ca

The infobox is meant to emphasize that the Chaco Culture has been recognized as a World Heritage Site. It includes the criteria which became the bases for its inclusion on the List, as well as the year when it was recognized as such. Other information such as identification numbers and geographic locations are also provided. Overall, the infobox is meant to throw light and give focus on the World Heritage program (and mind you, the 99% of readers who don't care, as user Saravask claims is an unsourced statement). In any case, the goal of the infobox is to introduce this to this "99%" (including the editor who claimed it). An ordinary reader may not be familiar with it, but it doesn't automatically mean that it is unimportant or rubbish--that's why there are links within the infobox directing to pages that explain the concepts. Also, if, as Saravask continues to assert the claim that it is "infocruft", then I might as well propose that we remove the IUCN infobox. I myself don't understand that and don't really care about it, much like how some readers might feel for the World Heritage infobox. Besides, as has been widely agreed upon in the international level of protection and conservation, the World Heritage Site commands the highest priority and level of importance. So in this case, the priority in the World Heritage infobox over the IUCN infobox. Joey80 04:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Mediator questions for Joey80:

1. Please source: "the World Heritage Site commands the highest priority and level of importance"
2. Why is it not sufficient to write a paragraph on the world heritage site status?
3. Please stay focussed on the points that support your argument and less on Saravask!
4. Can you cite any FA status articles on Wikipedia that have this infobox included?
5. Is there a WikiProject or other interested group that might be able to provide a wider prospective on this matter?

Alan.ca 06:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

My answers:

1. Refer to page 15 of this publication/page 17 of the pdf file: http://whc.unesco.org/cairns/iucn-priorities.pdf The schematic included shows the status of World Heritage Site at the top of the pyramid. The IUCN categories (National Parks, Natural Parks, etc.), meanwhile, are found in the second tier from the bottom.
2. If you include this as a paragraph in an article, it will go like this: "In <year>, <name of place> was recognized by UNESCO as a World Heritage Site because..." Actually, it is seldom that mentions of such a status even reach the "because..." part. Most of the time, it makes mere mention of it (just like in this case). Comparing this to an infobox, where the year, name, criteria (why it was recognized), type, current state (i.e. if it is in danger or not, in case of Chaco, it is not), and links are provided, then the infobox provides a more complete summary of its World Heritage status. Referring to Canadian World Heritage Sites, there is a paragraph citation, as well as the infobox. So in response to your question, why is it not sufficient to place an infobox concerning its world heritage site status?
3. Yes, I recognized that, my apology. However, Saravask has yet to respond to this case. But perusing at the history of revisions and looking at the comments made by the editor, please note the reasons provided.
4. Some featured articles with this infobox: Palace of Westminster, and other American World heritage sites like Redwood National and State Parks, Yosemite National Park, Yellowstone National Park. Mind you, there are featured articles not having this box. But this is due to the fact that the article just pertains to a part of a designated World Heritage Site, not the entire place. Examples: Sanssouci (see Palaces and Parks of Potsdam and Berlin), Banff National Park (see Canadian Rocky Mountain Parks). In the case of Chaco Culture National Historical Park, since this is a stand-alone World Heritage Site, then the infobox should be appropriately placed in this article.
5. According to the World Heritage Site article, it is placed under the group Architecture. However, taking note that some sites are not really manmade and even manmade sites may not refer to buildings but landscapes and other forms, that group does not wholly encompass the World Heritage Site concept.

Joey80 13:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Saravask, please respond to Joey's points. Alan.ca 05:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Notice:

1. Joey80 created, then spammed {{Infobox World Heritage Site}} across dozens of articles within the past few weeks. Not enough time has elapsed to determine whether the community has deemed Joey80's new creature useful.
2. Comment by Nemonoman at Talk:Taj_Mahal#Unesco_infobox—just one example (on my watchlist) of another article's principal author questioning Joey80's box. (this uninformative infobox does not deserve such a prominent position. ID=252? That deserves top billing? Please discuss your reasons on the talk page.)
3. {{Infobox Protected area}} presents such fundamental data as area, visitation, and location. I have no clue why Joey80 is calling it the "IUCN infobox". Meanwhile, his box has things like "Identification no" and "WH Committee Session". As Nemonoman states, Enough.
4. If Joey80 still wants such things as "Identification no" and "WH Committee Session" present in an article's infobox, then why not just merge them all into the {{Infobox Protected area}} infobox, since a World Heritage Site is just another type of protected area? Saravask 15:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• Joey80, how do you feel about Savarask's compromise to add "Identification no" and "WH Committee Session" to the {{Infobox Protected area}} infobox? Alan.ca 19:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
  • To quote, "Not enough time has elapsed to determine whether the community has deemed Joey80's new creature useful." Hence, if that's the case, why did Saravask already prejudged the template to be of no use and removed it? Like you said in the quote, you have to let the community decide. Even in the case of Nemonoman which you cited, the infobox was not removed, but was just moved. Joey80 13:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Joey80, how do you feel about Savarask's compromise to add "Identification no" and "WH Committee Session" to the {{Infobox Protected area}} infobox? Alan.ca 17:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that will be a good compromise. Come to think of it, the infobox may tend to be repetitive especially when put together in the same article as a protected areas infobox. In any case, I forwarded a request already to Wikipedia:WikiProject Protected areas to revise the template and either incorporate it into the current format of infobox being used, or make change it so as to be similar in format with the protected areas infobox. Joey80 04:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Excellent, thank you gentlemen, I have closed the medcab case. Alan.ca 20:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warfare, violence and cannibalism

Recently read LeBlanc's "Prehistoric Warfare in the American Southwest" and compared with material from my "student days". While the topics are still very controversial, a section on archaeological findings relating to warfare and violence in and around the Chaco system might be appropriate here. Opinions? WBardwin 00:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

IMO, this sounds like a good idea. I haven't read that particular book. I'm bogged down w/ exams, so I cannot help. But when I was doing background reading for this article, I came across mentions of warfare as possible contributors to the Chacoan decline. It was not explained well in the books I looked at. I guess in this article this is not explored as much as the drought/climate angle is. It's good to see this explored more fully in another source. Maybe others can omment. Cheers. Saravask 01:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

LeBlanc (archaeologist, Director of Collections at the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University) has written several books on warfare among Native American societies. This one, 320 pp., very well cited, asserts his interpretation well, but gives good coverage to the older "peaceful" viewpoint and several more modern contrasting opinions. I'm trying to summarize something on the topic for the Anasazi page, but he has lots of information on Chaco. Hope that others respond. WBardwin 01:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] chao canyon

the first one's who build a multi story building of adobe and cut stones with connecting passage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.144.155.149 (talk) 03:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Wirt H. Wills

It may just be me but the section of Dr. Wirt H. Willis seems to have little to do with this article. I can't cite the exact policy, but it seems like self promotion. What do others think? I won't delete or suggest that it be deleted until I get some feed back.Jfknrh (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I would concur -- although I doubt it's self promotion, it certainly reads like a copy violation. Contributed on 5 May 2008 by User:Miwok7 who perhaps someone was considering beginning an article on Wills and placed that material in this article. I've moved the section from the article to this section for discussion, but I would not want to see more than an appropriate reference to Wills work it in this article at all. WBardwin (talk) 02:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone willing to just move it off here, and put in on Wirt H. Wills (unless there is an objection that is)? I'd be more than happy to copy edit it over there. Biographical information has no place being in articles not about the person itself, its severely off topic. I'm assuming it was added here to avoid deletion of the material (possibly). SynergeticMaggot (talk) 03:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Will's written work on Chaco would certainly belong in references, and I would immagine he has a quotable opinion applicable to something in this article. However, Ancient Pueblo People might benefit from some of his material as well. WBardwin (talk) 03:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't even read most of what was on this article, but I started a conversation about it when I saved his bio from deletion. I don't have any of his books or articles, so I can't edit with respect to using him as a reference. It shouldn't be here though, I just forgot to remove it myself. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 03:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It definitely would be more appropriate on Wirt H. Wills, but I'd suggest referring back here as well.Jfknrh (talk) 21:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Wirt H. Wills is one of the leading southwestern archaeologists in the United States. Dr. Wills is currently a professor at the University of New Mexico. Dr. Wills primarily concentrates his expertise in the southwestern region of the United States, more specifically in New Mexico. His most recent southwest work includes the dig at Chaco Canyon in New Mexico. Dr. Wills defines his goals in his Curriculum Vitae: Field Research has been fundamental to my work in my four problem areas; 1) the origins of agriculture during the Late Archaic period (ca 4000 to 3000 B.C.), 2) the emergence of village communities during the early Ceramic Period (ca 200 to A.D. 500), 3) the development of hierarchically complex corporate groups after A.D. 1000 in the Colorado Plateau, and 4) the formation of Hispanic Irrigation communities during the 18th century in the Rio Grande Valley.

Dr. Wills research has been supported by such outstanding organizations as the National Science Foundation, the National Geographic Society, the Smithsonian Institution, and the American Philosophical Society. This ample funding has allowed him to investigate different areas of southwestern archaeology that interests him.

Career: Education 'Dr. Wills received his education at the University of New Mexico where he graduated Cum Laude in 1977. Prior to that Dr. Wills attended the Virginia Polytechnic and State University from 1973 to 1975. Dr. Wills then received his Master’s degree in Anthropology at the University of Michigan in 1980, followed by his Ph.D. in anthropology in 1985. Dr. Will dissertation was written on the Early Agriculture of Mogollon Highlands of New Mexico. His early research was done in the transition from food production to foraging. More recently, Dr. Wills has extended his research to include complicated social formations. (WillsCurriculum)

Professional Positions:

Dr. Wills has held a variety of Temporary Professional Positions in very prestigious locations. In 1982, Dr. Wills was a staff archaeologist at the Center for Archaeological Investigations, at Southern Illinois University. In March of 1989, Dr. Wills served a three month term as the Visiting Scholar in the Archaeology Department at Cambridge University. Dr. Wills also served as Visiting Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of Virginia from 2000 to 2001. Most recently, Dr. Wills served at the Smithsonian Institution as a Research Associate from 2002 to 2007. Dr. Wills has a permanent gallery at the Maxwell Museum of Anthropologyentitled Peoples of the Southwest, where he served as guest curator at the Maxwell Museum from 1988 to 1993. (WillsCurriculum)

Awards and Honors:

The awards and honors that Dr. Wills has received have been numerous as well. In 1988 Dr. Wills received the Presidential Recognition award at the University of New Mexico. In 2000, he received the Smithsonian Institution Short Term research award for the work that he did there. The Smithsonian Institute also honored Dr. Wills with the Smithsonian Institution post-doctoral fellowship award from 1985 through 1986. The United States Department of Interior Excellence also gave him a Service Award in March of 2001. He also received the Snead Wertheim Lectureship at the University of New Mexico in 2002 and 2003. Dr. Wills is also a member of the Society for American Archaeology, the American Anthropological Association. Dr. Wills belongs to the Arizona Archaeological and Historical Society, for his work in the American Southwest. Phi Beta Kappa, Sigma Xi, and Pi Alpha Theta are also several of the Greek organizations that Dr. Wills is currently a member of. (WillsCurriculum)

Published Works:

An extensive variety of papers, books and articles have also been written on the subject of Southwestern Archaeology. In 1994, Dr. Wills co-wrote the book entitled The Ancient Southwestern Community: Models and Methods for the Study of Prehistoric Social Organization. Another book was co-written by Dr. Wills in 1980, this book was entitled The Archaeological Correlates of Hunter-Gatherer Societies: Studies From the Ethnographic Record. Referenced journals have also provided Dr. Wills an excellent way in which to better report on his studies to an appreciative audience. The Late Archaic Across the Borderlands: From Foraging to Farming was written in 2006, this article describes the evolution from foraging for food to the development of agriculture in the Late Archaic period. In 1996, Dr. Wills went back to his dissertation and wrote an article entitled The Preceramic to Ceramic Traditions in the Mongollon Highlands of Western New Mexico, which was published in the Journal of Field Archaeology. The Journal of Anthropological Research also published his article entitled Patterns of Prehistoric Agricultural Development in Western New Mexico, in 1989. This article again touched on his research of the prehistoric southwestern people and how their agricultural and farming techniques developed over an extended period of time. (WillsCurriculum)

Chaco Canyon:

More recently, his work has been centered on the Chaco Canyon region of New Mexico. In 2000, Dr. Wills published the article entitled 'Alternative Leadership Strategies in the American Southwest.' This article discussed Dr. Wills’ theories on the political leadership of the 'Chaco canyon peoples during the years of A.D. 1020 to 1140. In 1997 Dr. Wills wrote 'Ceramics, Lithics, and Ornaments of Chaco Canyon, Analysis of Articles From the Chaco Project,' 1971 to 1978, this article was a preliminary analysis of the hammer-stones found in the Chaco canyon region. His studies there have provided him with an excellent wealth of knowledge in which to educate the world on the Southwest American agricultural and technological advances in regards to the prehistoric people that called the Chaco Canyon region home. As of the early nineties, the bulk of Dr. Wills’ work has been centered on the Chaco canyon region of New Mexico. Chaco canyon is known to have been the epicenter for cultural development of the southwest between the years of 800 and 1200 A.D. This period of time was unprecedented for the people of the region because they experienced an economic boom caused by increased farming techniques, in combination with massive trade systems and an increasingly complex ritual behavior which led to the construction of huge masonry buildings called “great houses.” Dr. Wills is currently working with the Chaco Stratigraphy Project; its purpose being to contribute to a greater understanding of the Chaco canyon region. Dr. Wills’ primary focus with the Chaco Stratigraphy Project has been to study in detail the technology and the agricultural change that resulted in the economic and social boom particularly during the years of A.D. 850 to 1140, otherwise called the Bonito Phase. Dr. Wills also has a particular attachment to this project because he was the one that wrote the funding proposal for the project. The document entitled, 'Chaco Canyon Project Description' was submitted to the National Science Foundation in 2003 by Dr. Wills. The purpose of this paper was to obtain funding from the National Science Foundation in order that the work at the Chaco Canyon site could continue. (WillsCurriculum)

University of New Mexico:

When he is not out in the field, Dr. Wills is also a professor of Anthropology at the University of New Mexico. Since the fall of 1986, Dr. Wills has taught a variety of courses including Pyramids and Paradoxes, Southwest Archaeology, Preceramic Southwest Archaeology, and Ritual in Prehistory. He also teaches a class with an Archaeological Field school. (UNM)