Talk:CAR-15

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It is my belief that this page should be deleted in favor of the Colt Commando entry. --Thatguy96 23:13, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)

--Perhaps the page should be edited to reflect the original CAR-15 Weapon System family. This included more than just the carbine variant. --D.E. Watters 23:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm new, but I saw the article for the Colt Commando and decided to drop in. I've got some tabular data regarding the XM-177/CAR-15 series, and some interesting external links, but this CAR-15 page is big and I don't want to muck about in it. I'd rather talk to the authors and work with them.

--Blikbok 23:32, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What is this on a 14.5" barrel version of the whole CAR-15 line being made in the early 70s? That sounds an awful lot like the M4, and that didn't get developed and put in service until the early 90s.-Alyeska

Colt released the 14.5" barreled-carbines of the M16A1 in the 1970s, the Models 651, 652, 653, and 654 in the early 1970s. The US military bought the Model 653 (14.5"-barrel with a sliding stock and forward assist) in the early 1980s. In the mid-1980s, Colt released 14.5"-barreled carbines of the M16A2 (Models 720, 723, 725, 727). The US military bought a small portion for special forces. The United States also looked into widescale deployment of them and that became the XM4 project. The Canadian Forces also bought the Model 725 from Diemaco as the C8 carbine. Though the M4/M4A1 was officially adopted in the 1990s, the M4 had been around since the mid-80s and they were in use, which is why you can see 14.5"-barreled carbines in use in the 1991 Gulf War and in Somalia in 1993. Basically, there's lots of 14.5" M16 carbines and the M4/M4A1 is one of those.Pettifogger 01:47, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

1 Redoing CAR-15 and Colt Commando
2 Merger
3 Summary Table
4 Why no "XM" designations in the article?

[edit] Redoing CAR-15 and Colt Commando

I think that the Colt Commando article should be merged with CAR-15 since Colt Commandos are a subset of CAR-15. Right now the Commando article discusses things that are definitely not Commandos, such as the RO608 CAR-15 Survival Rifle, RO607 CAR-15 SMG, or RO605 CAR-15 Carbine. Commando was first used on the RO609 XM177E1 and then for the 730/930 series.

I also propose that the CAR-15 section be composed of two many sections, one for the 1965 CAR-15 weapons system, the Model 603 XM16E1, the Model 604 M16, the Model 605 carbine, the Model 606 Heavy Assault Rifle M1, Heavy Assault Rifle M2, Model 607 SMG, and Model 608 Survival Rifle. Without a doubt, they are CAR-15s. (The RO601 Colt Armalite AR-15 was definitely not a clone of the Armalite AR-15. Note how the Armalite AR-15 had features like a single conical fiberglass handguard, different selector level positions, the inside-the-carrying-handle charging handle, etc.) The second section should be on the numerous M16 variants that have seen widespread use but were not adopted for wide use by the US military. Even if people disagree about whether they should be correctly called CAR-15s, it is a fact that CAR-15 is a popular name for those variants, and people looking for information on Wikipedia would probably type in CAR-15 in the search box. Where on Wikipedia should people look for information on the RO653 carbine? The M16 page is already large and beyond Wikipedia recommendations, so the non-standardized variants could be covered in CAR-15 instead. For example, the RO655 and RO656 were never type-classified and should not be on the M16 page. The RO653 carbine was definitely in use by the US military, as can be seen by numerous pictures of SEALs, Rangers, etc. There are also all the USAF carbines.

I think that M16A1 variants can rightfully be called CAR-15s. CAR-15 stands for Colt Automatic Rifle-15. Colt obviously prefers that people think AR stand for Automatic Rifle, not Armalite. Everyone agrees the Models 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, and 608 are CAR-15s. The Model 609 and 610 were regarded as CAR-15s too. The US Army ordered, 2815 CAR-15 "Commando model" on June 28, 1966. These were not the RO607 SMG, but the RO609 SMG. Only about 50 of the Model 607 SMGs were ever made. A Prelimination Operation and Maintenance Manual dated September 1966 was issued for the "Submachine Gun, 5.56-mm, CAR-15". Documents show that in January 1967 "The Type Designator SUB MACHINE GUN, 5.56mm, XM177 (Air Force Version) and XM177E1 (Army Version) has tenatively been assigned to the CAR-15 SMG."

I think all M16A1 derivatives should be regarded as CAR-15s too, because they were marked Colt AR-15, and in most cases, were export versions of the original seven. The Model 601 was stamped Colt Armalite AR-15. The Models 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 613, 614, 619, 639, 651, 652, 653, 655, 656 all had the prancing pony, and Colt AR-15 in big letters. Underneath all of that would be the Model number, Cal 5.56mm, and serial number for commercial versions. The Model 619 had Commando instead of model number. For military rifles, underneath would be Property of U.S. Govt., M16A1, Cal. 5.56mm, and serial number. The Model 609 had Commando instead of M16A1.--Pettifogger

A part of me would agree with this, but a part of me worries about lumping this all under CAR-15. CAR-15 was pretty much dropped from Colt nomenclature until its revival for post-SP1 carbines. I do agree that it creates serious problems of where to put pre-A2 rifles, but the facts of the matter are there isn't a place for post-645 Colt weapons either. Some sort of survey page should be created for the rest of Colt's line of this pattern in my opinion, to encompass things like the A1 carbines and the Enhanced Series. The Colt Commando entry does cover the USAF carbines, and the 653, and also talks quickly about Israeli hybrids, during an FYI. Personally I think we need to figure out more of what we're going to do about the rifles than about the carbines, and extract these things from the M16 entry. This is my opinion. --Thatguy96 19:25, 2 Dec 2005

My concern is the proliferation of the pages. There's so many that you need that template box. Right now, there's pages for the AR-10, AR-15, M16, M4, Commando, CAR-15, M231, Diemaco rifles, and all the marksmen/sniper weapons. If you don't know what you're looking for, it's hard to find information. I assume most people are looking for information on the US military-issued M16s and M4s. So first, I would divide it into what's US-military issued and what's not. The articles are already heavily American-centric and ignore all other countries. Obviously, talk of all civilian versions should be with AR-15. M16 should be restricted to US military versions. So the RO655, RO656, and XM106 stay. I admit it's very American-centric, but I don't want to include all the M16s made for foreign militaries, like the Filipino RO613P and Dutch RO718, because frankly, there's so many and it's difficult finding information on them. I would propose a M16 variants entry for all non-US military variants. I would put the Israeli hackjobs in this entry too, since they can't rightfully be called anything. Then, I would divide into early carbines and modern carbines.

The GUU-5/P are derived from GAU-5/A and GAU-5/A/A and should be wherever those two USAF carbines are discussed. Since the GAU-5/A and GAU-5/A/A are so similar to the XM177E1 and XM177E2, they should be with them. I would put the USAF GAU series and the US Army XM177 with CAR-15. Therefore, the first half of CAR-15 would be about the CAR-15 weapons family. The CAR-15 entry should also discuss Colt Machine Gun (CMG) series, since Colt always marketed the CAR and CMG together, that all of them together would be able to replace any weapon that a military would need. The second-half would be about the XM177E1, XM177E2, GAU-5/A, GAU-5/A/A, and GUU-5/P, all as evolutions of the original CAR-15 weapons family.

For talk about the RO653, RO720, RO723, RO727, etc. I would put them with the M4 Carbine, since they're tied so closely to its history, and were issued to various units. In fact, many people confuse those M16A2 carbines for the M4. The first few XM4s were made with RO723 pencil-profile barrels. I put the RO653 with the M4 because it was a post-Vietnam carbine that saw US military use, though I wouldn't have any problems with it being in CAR-15. I would also put the RO733 in the M4 entry since it's now called the M4 Commando.

OK, so that's all the US-military issued weapons. Then there's all the non-US military variants and all the one-offs or small production versions. Basically, this would be for the nitty-gritty that a casual reader woldn't care about. M16 variants would be a grabbag stuff without cluttering up the other articles. Like I said before, put the Israeli stuff here. The four-way Enhanced series can be discussed here. I believe the Greeks were the only one to purchase any significant number. All the other weird things like all of the HBAR rifles, the Colt 9mm SMGs, the 5.56x30mm Colt MARS, and the Model 703 gas piston design can go here too. Since it's non-specific to Colt, can also put non-Colt M16-related stuff like the 4.85x49mm UK M16s and the Leitner-Wise LW15 .499, which was for an extremely short time was in use by the Coast Guard.

I would put at the top of the M16 entry the following text. The M4 and CAR-15 should have similar prefaces.

This entry concerns the US military-issued M16 rifle. For information regarding US modern-era carbines, see M4 Carbine. For information regarding earlier US carbines, see CAR-15. For all other variants, see AR-15/M16 variants.

Under this organization, you have US military-issued rifles, two entries for US military-issued carbines with the line roughly being Vietnam-era and after, and one for all else. And of course, everything else in the side box for Diemaco and sniper and SpecialNavySEALDeltaForceNinja weapons.

Pettifogger 03:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

To me it sounds like you've thought this through a hell of a lot more than I ever will. Really, I don't think I'd be good at thinking up this kind of organization. My usual method is to put everything in one place and then work on breaking it up for clarity. I say go for it, do it, tell me if you need me to do any of it, and I'll just do what I've always done, gone to the pages and filled in what information I have if it isn't there already. I personally don't really care about the organization so long as the whole CAR thing is described so that people understand where it comes from, what it originally meant, and that CAR-15 as people use it today in common lexicon is not entirely correct. That's my main crusade. So yeah, I'm behind you on this all the way. We should definitly think up a format of some sort for the M16 variants page too though, but I'm sure you have one in your mind. --Thatguy96 11:26, 3 Dec 2005

I'd prefer leaving the pages distributed as they are. Wikipedia reportedly prefers several smaller articles over a long single article. If there is enough material and reason to break out a variant, do it. --D.E. Watters 21:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)]

pictures needed!!!

[edit] Merger

I deferred to those with much more extensive than me regarding these weapons, but right now, I think the CAR-15 and Colt Commando articles are a mess. Having both articles creates confusion, as seen by the recent edits to the CAR-15 article. They are unnecessarily duplicative of each other, both discussing the Model 605 carbine and Model 608 survival rifle, for example. They link to each other, because the Colt Commando needs the CAR-15 as part of its history, and the CAR-15 uses the Colt Commando article for extensive discussion of the XM177 series. The Colt Commando article seems to be used for any Vietnam carbine and beyond, including the Colt 653 M16A1 carbine and the Colt M723 Carbine. However, for those particular carbines, even if it may be incorrect, CAR-15 is the common term used. For example, the KAC Masterkey, Gary Gordon, Randy Shughart, and all of the Israeli military articles reference CAR-15, though they're talking about Model 653s and Model 723s, but a reader won't find much about them in the CAR-15 article. The two articles really need to be merged. A proposed draft of the new article will be at User:Pettifogger/CAR-15. Pettifogger 11:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that I actually see your proposed organization, I think I agree even more with your idea (I had agreed in theory when you first suggested this). Seeing as I wrote the vast majority of the Colt Commando article, and what I didn't write, you basically did, I feel like its mainly our decision. I say we should go for it, but archive the Colt Commando article somewhere so we can go back and make sure no information didn't get left out. -- Thatguy96 12:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've merged the two articles. If anyone needs to look at the old Colt Commando article, it's here. [1] Pettifogger 05:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

COuld you fix the info box at the top please. The Article looks much better with a single info box that covers all the different variaties broadly, with the smaller info boxes for each variation. --Tom of north wales 16:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC) Also, include the table on variants etc on the original (and better imo) Colt Commando article.

Respectfully, I don't think a single infobox is possible. The articles covers a range of weapons, from little stubby 10-inchers to full-size 20-inchers, so lengths, weights, muzzle velocities, etc. are going to vary greatly. That's why I split it up into a bunch of infobox. However, since the Commando article was better and you provided a link to it, I've restored it. Pettifogger 18:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Colt Commando article before butchering with table --Tom of north wales 16:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your civil response. Pettifogger 18:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You're wlcome. I've also moved the AR15 related articles bit to the top as that matches the other Ar15 related articles.--Tom of north wales 22:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I was being sarcastic. I felt that 'butchering' was a rather loaded word for criticizing the revision I had done, particularly since you added that phrase in a new edit, after writing in a link to the old article, even though I had already provided a link to the old article. The original Colt Commando article had many errors. To give a few examples:

It was informal in tone, such as describing the ATF regulation concerning sound suppressors as "general ridiculousness" or "a certain level of irony" about Colt's purchase of Diemaco.

It was incorrect about the Colt Model 607 being called a Commando. The Commando name was used on the Model 609 and later.

The Model 605 Carbine had a 15" barrel, not 16".

It was misleading about the International Security Assistance and Arms Control Export Act of 1976. The Act allows the President and the State Department to regulate the exportation of weapons. State Department regulations, not Congress, decide what is on the United States Munitions List, such as silencers.

I didn't keep the table, because I feel it unnecessarily increases the size of the article. I also dislike how the table doesn't explain the terms being used. The same information is in the infoboxes or in the text. However, I put it back in with an explanation of terms, and separated the Colt factory models from the Israeli and USAF modifications.

I cut out the criticisms section for several reasons. The table on velocity drop over range was for a 20-inch barrel and not necessarily that helpful for discussing the shortfalls of a 11.5-inch barrel, unless you just wanted to point out that bullets slow down over range. In that case, just write out that velocity drops over range and that at some distance, it drops below the magical 2700fps mark. The table listing muzzle velocity barrels of different lengths was repetitive. It's already listed in the infoboxes. The Criticism section asserts that a Commando's muzzle velocity is in excess of 2700fps. Colt states it as 2,611fps which is below 2,700fps. It says that the M4's barrel length of 14.5-inches was decided by this, and that it will fragment out to 125m. The 14.5-inch barrel was around since 1972. Fackler's work was mid-80s onwards. At ranges above 50 meters, not 125 meters, a M855 bullet fired from a 14.5" barrel will drop below the critical velocity to fragment reliably. It ignored entirely any reliability problems caused by the shorter barrels. In short, the criticisms section was speculative and inaccurate. Discussion of this really belongs in the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO article, since it's a problem particular to the cartridge being fired from short-barreled rifles and not just the Commando. There are other short-barreled 5.56 mm rifles such as the HK416, C8 CQB, and the Mk 18 Mod 0.

--Pettifogger 20:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It should have weapon on the title so that people don't confuse it for a car that you drive.

[edit] Summary Table

This table should be moved to its own page as it is too long and is not particularly relevant for this article. Perhaps a 'Colt AR-15 Variants' article should be created. X360 04:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I have started to put together a new article for this list. I have made a few minor edits (U.S. Military in bold was typed twice). Please edit and update this page rather than the old one in this CAR-15 article. I hope eventually the list in this page will be removed, and a link for a complete list will be mentioned. X360 06:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, just saw it, when I get some time I'll compile my complete list into the table, and add other functioning tables I have on my comp in excel. The tables scattered through these articles are mostly mine, so if you want to go around removing them from articles like M16 rifle, CAR-15, and Colt Canada C7 rifle, I don't see a problem. Just make sure they're properly linked, and then I'll add all the information in. -- Thatguy96 14:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why no "XM" designations in the article?

A couple times in the past I've tried to find the XM607 and other models on wikipedia, but a standard search just brings up the Vulcan/Blackbuck vehicle. Turns out that this article lists those variants as "Model 607" or similar. Would it be possible to also mention that they went by the terms XM607, XM605, etc., or would that be historically inaccurate? MatthewVanitas (talk) 12:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The term "XM607" and "XM605" are terms used primarily in the US civilian gun-owning community. Colt never referred to these weapons as such, and designations generally seem to be a product of people contracting the terms Model 605/607 with the later XM177 designation. -- Thatguy96 (talk) 13:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)