Talk:Cadair Idris

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Contents 1 Volcano myth 1.1 Debunking 2 Cader/Cadair? 3 References 4 Coordinates 5 King Arthur 6 Llyn Cau

[edit] Volcano myth

Is this worth mentioning? See here for examples. Seems to happen often enough to be of interest. RayGirvan 00:29, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Certainly better than not mentioning it. 172.214.212.35 16:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Debunking

The Charles Kingsley quote is nice, but it merely repeats that the identification as a volcanic crater is false - if his reasons are still valid could they be included? And if they are not, a brief statement as to why it looks like but isn't a volcanic crater would be helpful Julian I Do Stuff (talk) 11:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cader/Cadair?

I always used to think that 'Cader Idris' was an anglicisation, until I went to Tynceunant and spotted the form 'Cader' used on a relatively recent memorial plaque (c. 1980s/1990s?) in Welsh. (The plaque was actually bilingual, and 'Cader' was used in both the English and the Welsh inscriptions, but the Welsh came first, and I think it was of local origin.) I couldn't quote chapter and verse, but I'm sure I've since seen other reputable sources use 'Cader' as if it was the correct Welsh form -- I seem to recall that Jim Perrin, for example, strongly favours it. I suspect that 'Cader' reflects pronunciation, but don't know whether that's a local phenomenon or a wider one, or whether the spelling has much history of usage in Welsh. Can anyone find a reliable source to shed more light on the matter? --Blisco 20:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

My mother who was a native Welsh speaker always wrote Cader, she lived under the shadow of Cader Idris for the last few years of her life, so I guess, Cader is correct. "TheNose | Talk" 20:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Almost any Welsh speaker will tend to pronounce it more like "Cader" when not speaking carefully, simply because the second syllable does not receive the stress. This does not detract from the correct form (the "RP", if you will) being Cadair. If you ask a local to say the name slowly, he/she will probably say "Cad-air", not "Cad-uh". I am pretty sure that the "Cader" spelling dates from the Victorian explorations of Wales, along with "Dolgelley", "Carnarvon" and others. Perhaps "anglicisation" is the wrong word, but the "Cader" spelling is not a reflection of an exclusively local pronunciation. As long as we are sure that the etymology is from the Welsh for "chair", then the spelling has to be "Cadair"; Welsh has changed much less than English in the last thousand years, and so place-names tend to be spelt in correct modern Welsh more often than is the case for English place-names. In as much as the spelling "Cader" derives from a poor transcription of a name by a non-Welsh speaker, I think it can be considered an anglicisation, unless anyone knows of a better description for this phenomenon. --Stemonitis 09:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Then we are agreement, it is not so much an anglicisation, as a modern day adapted form of Welsh, having evolved over the last 100 years, and used extensively by modern day native Welsh speakers "TheNose | Talk" 10:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Not really. The spelling in Welsh would always have been "Cadair", and "Cader" only comes about from writing down careless speech patterns. "Cader" is an out-dated form, and not the modern form. OS maps say only "Cadair Idris" now, although they used to have "Cader Idris". Perhaps this would be better:

Cadair Idris (pronounced /ˌkadair'ɪdrɪs/, or /ˌkadər'ɪdrɪs/ in less careful speech; the corrupted spelling Cader Idris is also seen) is a …

--Stemonitis 10:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what used to be, in modern form Cader is extensively used by native Welsh speakers in written form, it is not for us to correct the flaws in their own use of the language, this is how languages evolves Language_evolution, it is less a case of careless use, but perhaps a reflection of local dialect and modern adaption. Even Welsh reporters for BBC Wales use Cader ^[1]

Rupert Moon is really a rugby player, rather than a journalist by training, and is not from around Cadair Idris (according to one summary of his book that I found, he may even be from England). And even on the BBC website, there are more hits for "Cadair Idris" than "Cader Idris". This is in constrast to the Victorian position where, in English, only "Cader Idris" would have been seen. Thus, "Cader" is neither local nor modern. The Welsh word "cadair" has not changed to my knowledge in the last couple of hundred years, and so the -er spelling is also not a result of language change. I think the description of "corruption" is probably the most accurate. --Stemonitis 10:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, the use of the spelling "Cader" on the BBC website, is a clear illustration that it is used in modern form by many people, whether correct or not, it is in use, and widely accepted by many regardless of them being Welsh or English. So it appears more as a "modern form", or "alternative modern form", than a corrupted form. The use of modern is fair as even if its use stretched back to Victorian times, that too is modern in the overal context of linguistic development. As, no one can be sure of the origin of the use "Cader", we cannot assume it is necessairly incorrect, it may be the correct spelling for a particular region, that over time has been replaced by another spelling. I can only speak from personal experience that my Welsh speaking Mother wrote Cader, even though she was fluent in written and spoken Welsh. "TheNose | Talk" 11:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Any form that is used less now than in the past cannot really be a "modern" form. It can, however, be common and widespread (which I of course accept), and it can very much be a corruption (in this case of the word for chair, cadair). "Modern" is a very misleading term in this context, since it suggests that the development is very new. Please note that "corruption" is not meant as a derogatory term, but just a description of the process.

I doubt that you would argue that "Dolgelley" is a valid local alternative, although the case is analogous. For many other towns, the English corruption has stuck as the English-language name (Kidwelly instead of Cydweli; Carmarthen instead of Caerfyrddin) but this does not seem to have happened in the case of mountains, where cartographers and other scholars have returned to the correct, native spelling.

It often surprises English speakers how little Welsh has changed. Welsh texts from the time of Chaucer can be read with little problem by a Welsh speaker, whereas Chaucer has to be translated into Modern English. It would be possible for a local dialect to have developed recently in which cadair was always said cader (even in careful speech), but it's very unlikely. Corruption of Welsh place-names is, on the other hand, an established phenomenon. --Stemonitis 11:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

So we should use "common" instead of corrupted or modern, I think that is probably a more accurate term as we cannot say with any authority if it is a corruption or modern, but we can agree that it is a common form used throughout England and Wales, by speakers of both languages. "TheNose | Talk" 11:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we know that "cadair" is the (only) correct word for "chair" in Welsh [1]. --Stemonitis 11:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a section on the name which I hope represents the above views fairly. Anecdotal and unreferenced it may be, but it's a start. --Blisco 19:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

As long as we are sure that the etymology is from the Welsh for "chair", then the spelling has to  
be "Cadair"

This does not follow. A place name is not the same as a common noun. Old spellings and old pronunciations change and do not change, their eyes half-shut to the language around them. Standardised spelling merely represents a decision at some point in a people's history to adopt one form to the exclusion of others - the concept of having such a rigid system is in fact relatively new. I see no need to tell the people of Warwick to start pronouncing all the Ws in their town's name. I don't think I need to go into the many reasons this would be preposterous and muddle-headed.

In as much as the spelling "Cader" derives from a poor transcription of a name by a non-Welsh 
speaker, I think it can be considered an anglicisation

Does it? You may be right, but I see absolutely no reason to assume this is the case. You mention the spelling Dolgelley. This, however, is not an anglicisation at all (it is closer, after all, even to the form Owain Glyndŵr used). Dolgellau would appear to be a modern hypercorrection based on false etymology.

Now, doubtless Cader is indeed 'the same word' as Cadair, but this is not to say that it is a corruption thereof or that it is therefore incorrect. It is, after all, as many people have noted, a better representation of the normal way the word is pronounced in Welsh. And please, let's stop this rubbish now about 'careless speech'. It is in no way careless to pronounce 'cadair' [kader] rather than [kadair]. Nor - and let's get this very clear - is it less correct. A cockney who calls his brother his bruvver is pronouncing the word no less correctly than the Oxford don with perfect RP. Language changes and varies, and spelling waits on pronunciation, not the other way round. It is a slow waiter: it hasn't even caught up with how we say 'caught'.

It would be possible for a local dialect to have developed recently in which cadair was 
always said cader (even in careful speech), but it's very unlikely.

This is rubbish. Inasmuch as 'careful speech' is heavily influenced by spelling, I agree that most people who say [kader] may well say [kadair] at some point. However, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that the people who lived around Cader Idris, say, two hundred years ago would necessarily have said [kadair]. I think it most likely that that pronunciation is a modern hypercorrection based on the spelling. I may be wrong, but it's not less likely.

When it comes down to it, Cader seems the more common form locally (and I grew up there). I suspect the spelling Cadair is the more modern spelling - I may be wrong, but I do not see any better evidence for it being the older one for the mountain. But whichever is the more modern: why should recent mean wrong? garik 22:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I support this view, as my Welsh speaking mother wrote Cader, and she too lived local to the mountain. "Snorkel | Talk" 09:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

We would not expect brother to be bruvver, and we would not expect to see a pronunciation given of [bɹʌvʌ]. We have to rely on some kind of standardised pronunciation, rather than listing pronunciations in every conceivable accent. Yes, there is language change and language variation, but until someone starts the Cockney Wikipedia, we will continue to use "brother" rather than "bruvver". The authoritative maps and many other sources give "Cadair", which is pronounced [kadair] in the nearest thing Welsh has got to RP. The Warwick example is misleading because the meaning of the word is not clear — how many people realise that it means "weir-village" (I certainly didn't)? "Cadair Idris", on the other hand, is directly intelligible to a Welsh speaker, and so the spellings of chair and the mountain's name are not de-coupled in the same way; the two situations are not analogous. --Stemonitis 09:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I confess me point about bruvver was somewhat tangential to the main point: it was aimed at this nonsense about careful and careless speech; I was not claiming that there would be any advantage to writing the word that way in 'normal' standard English. I do not, however, follow your logic that Cader Idris is unintelligible to a Welsh speaker - and I disagree that the word would be pronounced [kadair] in 'the nearest thing Welsh has got to RP'. By that you seem to mean spelling pronunciation. I would add that I was always perfectly aware of what the word meant, long before I saw it spelt Cadair. But yes, the analogy is somewhat poor, since the meaning of Warwick is less immediately clear. However, I don't see that it makes a great deal of difference: a place name is still not the same as a common noun. There is no requirement, except in your personal taste, that one should follow the other. garik 10:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no such requirement, but in this case, many people (not just me) prefer the -ai- spelling, among them the OS, and I think that makes sense. Where I know the meaning of a word, I am more likely to retain the standard spelling. If I know that there's a mountain called "The Cobbler", and I know that this refers to a cobbler, I'm not likely to spell it "The Cobblah" or somesuch, even if I might pronounce it that way. --Stemonitis 11:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don't see why this needs debating so intensely. I've spent a fair bit of time in the area and encountered both spellings used in both English and Welsh. Since there appears not to be a consensus that one is 'correct' in modern usage, I think the article should use the Ordnance Survey spelling (as this is a recognised authoritative source) and note that Cader is a widely-used alternative spelling. Getting into the perceived correctness or otherwise of either one will just end up being POV conjecture, unless someone can find a definitive source (i.e. not supposition based on common usage) to the contrary. --YFB ¿ 11:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I entirely agree. As I hope I've suggested above, I don't think there is a way of establishing one form as correct - common usage is as definitive as it gets in these cases (but is no more definitive than other evidence). To take Stemonitis's example, I would probably spell a mountain Cobblah if that was the spelling I was used to - especially if (as is the case in Dolgellau), that spelling was so ingrained that the local school called itself Cobblah School. But if I was more used to maps than local usage, I may well spell it Cobbler. This issue of 'correctness', as YFB points out, is rather a red herring in these cases. garik 12:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

1. ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/dolgellau/pages/cader_idris.shtml

[edit] Coordinates

This should either be left out as it already features within the Infobox, or Template:Infobox_Mountain should be edited to include it on all Mountains

This would assist be reducing the number of individual edits required and will reduce the requirement for individual reverts "TheNose | Talk" 12:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King Arthur

I notice this has been added to WikiProject King Arthur. What has Cader Idris got to do with him especially? garik 23:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was in Category:Arthurian locations. Judging by the article, I'd assume this is because of the "Myths and legends" section, which says it is one of several locations bearing the name "Arthur's Seat".--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I thought it might have been mentioned in some Arthurian story (though that would have surprised me, as I'm sure I'd have heard about it!). The thing is, it clearly doesn't bear the name Arthur's Seat, as the myths and legends section points out. Cadair Idris translates as "Idris's Seat", and Idris was a giant. There's no reason at all, apart from wishful thinking, to suppose that Idris is a corruption of Arthur, or another name for him. garik 18:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

So I see. If the only connection between Cadair Idris and the Arthurian legend is in one fantasy novel, perhaps it can be removed from the Arthurian locations category, and the project tag can be removed. Personally I don't mind the project keeping an eye on it, but if you feel differently go ahead and remove it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Llyn Cau

As Llyn Cau is much more relevent to the mountain itself than Tal-y-Llyn, wouldn't it be more sensible to have an image of Llyn Cau (which would also show the chair-like nature of the mountain which is discussed in the article)replacing the image of Tal-y-Llyn? Asvasv (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have such an image? We are limited in the set of images we can add to the article. They must be uploaded to Wikipedia and be freely licensed. If you have a good quality image you can donate to the project, I'm sure it would improve the article. Best, Gwernol 15:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I do indeed have such an image :-) I've uploaded and edited. Asvasv (talk) 14:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)