Talk:Bodegraven

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[edit] "Pakjes" sloten & "kont" sloten

Ach, laat ik maar 'es gebruik maken van de Nederlandse taal, dan kunnen we dit tenminste onderons houden.
Tot mijn verbijstering kwam ik de termen "parcel" ditches (kavelsloten) en "rear" ditches (achtersloten) tegen in dit artikel. Letterlijk vertaald staat er dus: "pakjes" sloten en "kont" sloten. Kortom, volgens mij ligt de Engelssprekende goegemeente in een deuk: rare jongens, die Hollanders!
Maar goed, het is gemakkelijker kritiek te leveren dan met een goede Engels uitdrukking op de proppen te komen. Als ik mij goed herinner werd veelal de uitdrukking "schei-sloot" gebezigd; dat kan kan heel goed vertaald worden met "partition" ditches. Achtersloten is wat lastiger, ik zou zo zeggen: "back" ditches; dat lijkt mij redelijk neutraal. Ik zal commentaar afwachten voor ik de overeenkomstige verandering aanbreng: misschien dat iemand anders met iets beters op de proppen komt. JdH 01:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thinking a bit more about this: in American English the expressions "dividing line" and "back line" are used to describe the division lines of a tract of land. By analogy I would suggest to translate "schei-sloot" to "dividing ditch", and "achtersloot" to "back ditch". It is possible that different expressions are used in British English, but I couldn't tell. JdH 13:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Grappig kommentaar, maar het maakt duidelijk dat je niet goed engels kent. "Parcel" betekend ook "lot (real estate)" and de eerste betekenis van "rear" is "achter" (zie: wiktionary:rear). -- P199 13:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Denk ik ook: na 20 jaar woonachtig te zijn in de Verenigde Staten ken ik nog steeds geen goed Engels. Maar zoals gezegd, het is mogelijk dat er sprake is van een verschil tussen Amerikaans en Brits Engels; voor Amerikanen betekent "rear" iha "achterwerk". JdH 13:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• No, in this context there is no difference between American and British English. I agree that there is no English equivalent to the terms kavelsloten and achtersloten, and so the terms are directly translated. I choose the word "parcel" over "lot" (more multiple meanings) and "division" (not a direct translation of "kavel", besides, it's dividing what???). The difference between "rear" and "back" is not much and harder to explain but "rear" better connotates that these ditches are behind the rivers (similar to the terms "rear admiral" and "rear engine"), whereas "back" would indicate a position of being last or distant (see Websters). So I have reverted your changes to the article. -- P199 14:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned, in Dutch the usual expression is "schei-sloot"; "schei-" stands for scheiding=division; i.e.: division between lots. In de US a track of land that has been sub-divided into "lots" is called a "sub-division"; a very common expression used for housing developments. A quick search with google will confirm how common that particular connotation is.
I think "Rear admiral" refers to keeping an eye on what happens behind the fleet, i.e.: "achterste van de vloot", as in "rear mirror": mirror to keep an eye on what happens behind the car, achterste van de auto dus. Again, google will show that the common expression for land divisions is "back line" or sometimes "end line"; "rear line" is rarely used. See also WP:COMMONNAME; in this case "dividing line" and "back line" are clearly the most common expressions. JdH 15:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• You are right, but I was translating kavelsloten, not scheisloten. Even so, while "dividing line" is a common expression, "dividing ditch" is NOT - in this case, "division ditch" would be more accurate. As for the difference between "rear" and "back", you miss the point: when used as an adjective, rear refers to things or places behind you but not necessarily the farthest back. Again, while "back line" may be common in the US, that has no bearing on translating the unrelated term "achtersloten". I really don't care much for using Google as an authority, but if you must, a Google search for "rear ditch" makes it clear that this term is equally in use.

Perhaps you may not fully comprehend this difference or it may well be a local thing, regardless, it's clear that all terms used here are limited in conveying the concept and I'll do a small rewrite to explain it more accurately. -- P199 18:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It turns out that drainage ditch and boundary ditch are both very common expressions, so I think the proper thing to do is choose between those two alternatives. btw: a "ditch" is often dry; if it has always water in it "canal" may be a better word for it. JdH 15:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)