Talk:Bernadette Soubirous

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Old discussion archived See the article on how to archive a talk page

• /Archive 1: start of page – Apr 2006.

Contents 1 NPOV 2 Miraculous Medal 3 May rework 4 Shack doesn't use talk pages 5 Mediation 6 Date discrepancy? 7 Perhaps interesting to watch 8 Werfel "facts" 9 Marie-Bernard? 10 Background 11 17 or 18? 12 Vandalism

[edit] NPOV

Does not have a NOPV. Someone could place a sign telling this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.96.212.186 (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miraculous Medal

Bernadette didn't own a real miraculous medal, but a combined medal (they are not unusual) with the Immaculate Conception (as on the Miraculous Medal) on one side and St. Teresa of Avila on the other. 83.181.65.218 22:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I used to have one of those. It had a profile of Mary's face looking down and the reverse side was the Sacred Heart. Interesting that hers had Teresa on it, famous for pragmatic advice for how to handle visions and manifestations. Bernadette wouldn't have known about that at the time though. --Bluejay Young 04:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] May rework

I am hoping to remove the NPoV tag. any comments? Dominick ^(TALK) 20:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

OK hearing nothing about it, I will start work. Dominick ^(TALK) 11:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, dominick. Speaking frankly, I have had it with the pseudo-skeptical remarks being inserted into this article. They do not serve to make the article more NPOV -- rather, they interrupt the flow of the narrative. There are ways to report what happened, and what was said to have happened, without resorting to "This could have happened for natural reasons" and the extraneous links to Ms. Shack's ill-worded articles, which are based largely on original research and her own speculation. I've done my fair share of that when I was disturbed about a subject, and I try not to handle articles like that on wikipedia any more if I can't keep my emotions out of it. I'm coming very close to going on another hiatus from this article if something can't be done. --Bluejay Young 07:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we are making progress. Please keep on trucking! Dominick ^(TALK) 17:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The number of times that words such as "claimed" and "supposed[ly]" occur in this article I find frankly comical - especially as the article doesn't allude to any authorities that have undermined the trustworthiness of the alleged apparitions. It's perfectly reasonable to describe the apparitions as resting upon the uncorroborated testimony of one illiterate peasant girl - surely we don't need to be reminded of the fact in every sentence. (If it's necessary for Wikipedia articles to be written so that any sentence can be lifted out of context and used without ambiguity, then the resulting text is going to make bizarre reading.)

I tend to agree. In an attempt to prove NPOV it becomes pedantic and even weasel in it's method. The Encyclopedia Britannica does not resort to such qualifications, leaving it to the reader to believe or not. "> Saint Bernadette of LourdesGoldenMeadows 11:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. I hope someone acts on this. The article in its current state is embarrassing. If no one does something about out in the next month or two I may come back and do it. ETom67 04:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I have made an attempt to redress the skeptical nature you allude to whilst remaining unbiased. I hope I have succeeded. If it isn't upto standard feel free to revert RoyalBlueStuey 07:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shack doesn't use talk pages

Shack doesn't use talk pages. I wish I knew why. Dominick ^(TALK) 18:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there some kind of warning we can place on her Talk page? MamaGeek Joy 18:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

like what, play nice? Dominick ^(TALK) 19:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I found a civility warning template, and placed it on her Talk page. I sincerely hope that she will participate in discussions of the article in the interest of furthering the Wikipedia philosophy of non-original research and NPOV articles. MamaGeek Joy 19:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)this is so wonderful

[edit] Mediation

I left a 3RR warning on her talk page last night. This morning, her changes were back, including a dead link which I specifically warned her not to re-enter. I have submitted the entire affair to mediation. I think it is alright for other users to add to this form. --Bluejay Young 03:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date discrepancy?

Was Bernadette 14 or 17 when she had her first vision? If she was born in 1841 and the first vision was in 1858, she should have been 16 or 17; however, the article says that she was 14. Is her age at the time a typo?

Ron G., sgore@awesomenet.net

It was not a typo, but an edit, possible vandalism, by the now banned user, user:Dark-hooded smoker. Thank you for drawing my attention to this misinformation which I have now corrected thanks to your perceptiveness--File Éireann 20:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps interesting to watch

http://www.nationalgeographic.co.in/watch/program_details.aspx?id_program=4461 Shinobu 21:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Werfel "facts"

Whoever is editing this article to insert material from Werfel's book is hereby requested to stop it. Werfel's book is not a biography or a documentary, it is hagiographic fiction. Vauzous was not Bernadette's school teacher, for instance. You've inserted this material several times (comments like "at sixteen the ailing child was very beautiful" are direct quotes from the book). Let's try to keep this article sticking to the facts only. --Bluejay Young 11:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marie-Bernard?

My understanding is that Bernadette's name at birth was "Marie-Bernard", and "Bernadette" is only a diminutive of this name (a soubriquet). However, she was so widely known as Bernadette that it became accepted as her name. Can anyone confirm this? (I do know that when she took the veil, her name became Soeur Marie-Bernard). Preacherdoc 00:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

According to Oliver Todd's The Lourdes Pilgrim (Chelmsford: Matthew James Publishing, 1997) she was baptised as Marie-Bernarde but always known as Bernadette. Benbristol, 14:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, in addition to the above, the article has her named as St Bernadette Soubirous. This is wrong. She is Bernadette Soubirous, sure, but St Bernadette of Lourdes. Benbristol, 14:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background

In her excellent, well-researched book Lourdes: Body and Spirit in the Secular Age, the author Ruth Harris describes several events which echo the accepted Bernadette narrative. Until I read it, I was unaware that, in the decades before Bernadette's visions, several illiterate peasant children (usually girls) claimed to see the Virgin Mary in visions in remote countryside (typically clefts or caves in rocks) all along the Pyrenean border between France and Spain (sometimes on the Spanish or Basque side). After investigation, all were discredited. However, Harris points out that Bernadette's visions, rather than being unique and unprecedented, took place against the backdrop of a cultural ethos which supported (perhaps even expected) such events.

Although Bernadette herself claimed to shy away from the publicity which her visions brought, there is no doubting the benefit (in money and status) it brought to her penniless family. It might be reasonable to include some remarks along these lines in the article. Preacherdoc 01:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 17 or 18?

I've seen in some places that she had 17 visions of the Virgin Mary, other places (in the seeming majority) have claimed 18. So, what I want to know is: which one is it? Elemento 16:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps she made it all up and it was none? Albatross2147 (talk) 02:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

The article appears to have been vandalised. I do not have the time or knowledge to fix. Can someone attend to the issues under Visions etc? Albatross2147 (talk) 22:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)