Talk:Belvedere College

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Contents 1 The Blessed Columba Marmion 2 Alumni 3 Terry Wogan 4 Belvedere Science 5 Belvedere Crest 6 "Only In God" 7 Alumni 8 Belvedere Classification 9 First paragraph too long and unstructured 10 One of Ireland's oldest schools 11 Page Editing 12 Jesuit Ethos 13 Sports 14 Sources for notable alumni 15 Athletics

[edit] The Blessed Columba Marmion

Can someone add Columba Marmion to the famous past pupils section. In fact Im surprised there is no wikipedia article about him.

[edit] Alumni

Could someone please confirm that James MacNeill (2nd Govenor-General of the Irish Free State) was a past pupil. I know for a fact he was president of the PPU, so am assuming he was a Past Pupil. Also would anyone know who was the First President of the PPU, cant remember the name, though it was SIR something, possibly worthy of the Alumni list. Also am i correct in saying Richard Bruton went to Belvo, i know John went to Clongowes, but think Richard went to belvo.

[edit] Terry Wogan

Someone keeps adding Terry Wogan as a past pupil. Odd since he was born and raised in Limerick and there is no boarding in Belvedere.

Not really, he went to Belvedere in 5th and 6th year. Have a look in his auto biography. Got out of limerick as soon as he could!

Terry Wogan went to Belvedere.

he was a star of the belvedere debating team

[edit] Belvedere Science

Is there anything that can be added to the science paragraph? Should we include the names of the students?

The article as a whole is pretty good, but when I read it the names of the two students who won the scholarships stuck out like a sore thumb as utter trivia. I don't know the two guys in question and wish them every success, but if their 5 week scholarship is notable enough for inclusion, then by the same token every winner of every medal (Duggan medal, Dempsey medal etc.), every student who has represented the school in international competition, the school captain for 150 years, the lead role in the opera and the play, the captain of JCT and SCT etc., and pupils who won "proper" scholarships to US universities, i.e. scholarships covering their full college careers, all have a claim for inclusion. Those of a certain generation might be interested to know I won a merit card in Elements Knights 30 years ago, but Wikipedia ain't the place to tell them. Tt 225 07:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution, I've taken it into account and I've created a permanent facility to include the recipients names. Referencing your intention to consider including the winners of the Duggan medal etc., their merits should be taken on a case by case basis and not thrown in with a discussion about an article on Science in Belvedere.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you missed my point - winners of a transition year prize simply aren't notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. People visiting the page don't have any interest in it. Instead of creating a permanent facility to keep your name on the page why not truly consider whether the encyclopedia entry for the school is going to be enhanced by an ever-increasing list of trivia. Tt 225 01:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but its not my name. I was asked by the headmaster to ameliorate the section about science as part of Belvedere's policy on promoting the life sciences (including mentioning names!). May I ask who are you to determine Belvedere's priorities? Or indeed, to call them "trivia"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

I suppose I should deal with the provocative question first, without becoming overly provoked. You seem to suggest that this encyclopedia article should be platform for Belvedere's policies, and that authorship of the article should be confined to those who have had the imprimatur of the headmaster, or at least those who edit the page to his (or your) satisfaction. But Wikipedia is not (among other things) a soapbox WP:NOT#SOAP

So perhaps we can agree that editing the page does not equate to speaking on behalf of the school? I believe I have sufficient association with and knowledge of Belvedere to make a positive contribution to this page in the spirit of neutrality. In contrast, WP:COI suggests that your edits of this section are more suited to, say, the Belvederian annual than to this forum: "In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. Of special concern are organizational conflicts of interest." The footnote goes on to clarify that organisational conflicts: "include, but are not limited to, those posed by edits made by: public relations departments of corporations; or of other public or private for-profit or not-for-profit organizations; or by professional editors paid by said organizations to edit a Wikipedia article with the sole intent of improving that organization's image." Nuff said? And perhaps worth mentioning to the next person who tries to "suggest" to you that you should edit the article with a particular agenda in mind?

Now, conflict aside, I can see that you have put far more effort into the page than most others, and I do appreciate that. But when somebody else edits the page and they clearly aren't out to vandalise it or to defame the school in some way, please take their contribution in good faith and recognise that it isn't your property or that of the school: WP:OWN

My points above remain valid - the article correctly recognises the individuals connected with the school who are notable enough for such recognition in the alumni section. Winners of prizes in a school are recognised in the school's yearbook or in the local newspaper, not in the Encyclopedia Britannica or Wikipedia. My edit leaves the relevant information that the scholarship exists, and leaves the external link to the newsletter where the two names can be found, should anyone want to investigate further. Tt 225 01:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belvedere Crest

Someone has deleted the Belvedere Crest and motto from the top right hand corner of the page. Is there any way to recover it?

This image can be used:

I don't know why it was deleted. It's not great quality and would probably be best to scan in a high resolution version. Curtains99 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Only In God"

I attended Belvedere from 1982 to 1991 and never heard this particular song. When did it become popular?

I attended Belvedere from 1998 to 2004 and it was one of the first Rugby related songs I heard Takeshi316 21:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It was popularised by the class of 1995 during a senior cup campaign.

I understand that to be the case - think it was the cheerleaders of 1995 - Fionan Murphy, Steve Murray and Hugh Brennan amongst others... The page appears to reflect that it was begun in 1997 which I think is incorrect. Perhaps someone could clarify? 217.206.192.162 (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact I can remember it being requested at the Graduation of Rhetoric 1996 - there was a brief delay before the ceremony and Lennie asked that the song be sung to "keep the proceedings moving along"... it's popularity then as an anthem of sorts was becoming quite apparent... 217.206.192.162 (talk) 12:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

Names keep on getting added here which may be notable but which do not have Wiki entries, nor any citations of notability given. I have removed the following : John Gerard Campbell; Paul Robert Duffy; Fionan Murphy; David Ryan; Karl Mullen - on the basis that there is nothing cited for them, and none of them have a Wikipedia entry of their own. The only one I've heard of is Karl Mullen. I appreciate that a presence on Wikipedia should not be a minimum requirement, but when such a presence is lacking, I think there should be some kind of indication of notability by another means. --Wastekiller 12:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC) Karl Mullen is cited in "Belvedere's Rugby Heroes". He is one of the most famous rugby internationals from Belvedere.

Karl Mullen - captained the Lions tour 1950. Captained Ireland's Grand Slam winning team 1948. Tt 225 22:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)tt225

[edit] Belvedere Classification

This section has been removed by user Mjss3. I thought it was useful, neutral information, although it might have been a bit more concise. Any thoughts? Curtains99 10:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

useful to whom?

The class naming system is a notable feature of the school. Please sign your comments by adding 4 tildes at the end of your comments (~~~~). Curtains99 13:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Change this heading to School Academic Structure (to match the article heading)? Also, the classes used to be named by a different convention: Senior school had four streams e.g. 1G1, 1GA, 1G2, 1G2A. The Junior school had the class names Elements Knights & Warriors; Rudiments Lions & Tigers; 3G Explorers, Pilots & Scouts; and 2G Falcons, Eagles and Hawks. Probably too trivial to include? Tt 225 07:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)tt225

[edit] First paragraph too long and unstructured

I have tagged the article for cleanup. Curtains99 10:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's one line.

You're right. I meant to say the lead section before the contents pane is too long. Have a look at WP:IA for guidelines or any featured article to see that lead-in sections should not be this long. I will restore the cleanup tag. Curtains99 13:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One of Ireland's oldest schools

Anyone got a source for this? Curtains99 10:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Editing

Is there someone in the school who continually removes the sections about the school class naming? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Please stop changing 'Moron' to 'Moran'. Thanks, Curtains99 20:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jesuit Ethos

This section is a bit rambling. I would suggest that the charitable fundraisers could be placed in their own section. Sure, they stem from the school ethos, but a separate section would classify them as an aspect of school life, like science, sport etc. Tt 225 08:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sports

Blackboard Jungle ... hardly a sport, and should it be listed at all unless a trivia section is added? Tt 225 08:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are you so obsessed by the word "trivia"? Winning Blackboard Jungle is one of Belvedere's major achievements and yes, quizzes are considered an intellectual sport just as board games like chess are. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk) 20:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Dear me, the hysteria. I'm not obsessed, just giving a point of view. This is a discussion page after all. You have persuaded me that a quiz can fall within a wide definition of "sport". However, "major achievement" is overstating things a little IMO. Tt 225 09:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for notable alumni

Each alumnus needs a source, proving he went to Belvedere. Unsourced alumni will be deleted. 193.1.74.97 12:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

While it was a pain reinserting the alumni after they were all deleted, it's hard to disagree that they do need sources, and that whoever deleted them was correct. That being the case, some of the alumni are given sources from Wikipedia itself, which is kind of pointless ... Wikipedia is not a reliable third-party source as required by policy WP:Verify. It is all too easy for an article about Joe Bloggs to say he went to Belvedere and for the article about Belvedere to list Joe as a past pupil, and for each to cite each other as verification. Hence the {{citation needed}} tags. Tt 225 21:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Athletics

Is there anyone who can list the atletics achievements of the school? I notice that it is not represented well on the page.