Talk:Before Present

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What is special about 1950?? Georgia guy 22:34, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm looking into this for an answer. --Viriditas | Talk 06:25, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Found it. Adding... --Jemiller226 18:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

The "Before Present or Before Physics" section is really sloppy and incoherent. -- Ted

Yes, and its content was apparently also incorrect. Here's another reputable reference besides the one i already quoted in the article:

"B.P. originally did mean "before present" but eventually was changed to mean "before physics" after A.D. 1950 was standardized as the fixed point from which age determinations are (and I hope always will be!) calculated."

--Espoo 19:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 explanation of revert 2 BP 3 This article is too limited 4 I've Never Run Into the Phrase "Before Physics" 5 Radiocarbon nonsense 6 Comments on Rewrite 7 References need improvement 8 Gee Whiz 9 B.P.

[edit] explanation of revert

Jclerman, it is not OK to comment in the article itself on changes in the article. If you feel that AD should be used instead of CE, you should explain that here on the talk page.

Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and has to take into consideration that many people consider use of Christian terminology in dates inconsiderate and rude. Although Common_Era lists about as many arguments for as against use of CE/BCE instead of the provincial, egocentric, and inconsiderate use of AD/BC, the fact remains that attempts to keep the Christian terminology are doomed to failure. In all truly international contexts where participants are equal and come from different cultures and religions, use of CE/BCE has been the norm for a long time. The following quotes should be enough to make you realise that you're fighting a losing battle and doing nothing but provoking anti-European and anti-US and anti-Christian sentiments:

from Common_Era: More visible uses of common era notation have recently surfaced at major museums in the English-speaking world: The Smithsonian Institution also prefers Common Era usage, though individual museums are not required to use it.[2] As well, many style guides now prefer or mandate its usage. [3][4][5][6][7] Some style guides for Christian churches even mandate its use; for example, that of the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.(pdf) The usage of the BCE/CE notation is growing in textbooks. It is used by the College Board in its history tests, as well as by the National Geographic Society and the United States Naval Observatory. [8]

from http://www.religioustolerance.org/ce.htm : We use the terms CE and BCE throughout this web site because they are less hurtful to non-Christians. We feel that this outweighs any of the objections to their use of which we are aware. We want to communicate ideas while being civil and considerate to people of all religious traditions. This is compatible with the purpose of this web site, which is to promote religious tolerance. We want to reduce discrimination, oppression and unnecessary pain caused to people on the basis of their religion. Some people call this being "politically correct" because it is sensitive to the feelings of others. That is their right. But we feel that the use of CE and BCE is the decent and considerate thing to do.

I also question the reasoning behind your changes of the quotes:

1) There is no reason to remove the explanation [U.S. National Bureau of Standards]

2) Splitting the explanation of the meaning into two parts is unnecessary and complicates the issue, and your paraphrase of the second part is so much more complicated that it's incomprehensible to most:

"redefined the meaning of the P in BP from the actual year of the laboratory analysis to Physics" is nonsense compared to the original's clarity: " redefined the meaning of B.P. from 'Before Present' to 'Before Physics' "

In addition, this note was confusing and irrelevant because there were and are no claims to the contrary: "Definitions such as BP can not be changed ad libitum but only by consensus obtained at international commitees."

Finally, you used nine edits to change only three things. This makes it difficult for others to decide which of your edits are OK and which not. Please use the "Show preview" button to check your edits before pressing "Save page".

--Espoo 04:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BP

Currently BP in WP means British Petroleum. This means that at least some articles link to British Petroleum (as in ' 26,000 BP ' when 'before present' is meant. It also means editors have to code the cumbersome ' 26,000 BP ' to correctly link to this article. Any support for the idea of trying to get article BP to be a redirect to 'Before Present' and making a 'BP (oil)' article to handle the oil company. Hmains 19:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I'm going through and fixing bad links like the example you gave, and I ran across your comment. I'm afraid I must disagree. The three main uses of "BP" or "bp" are those meaning "Before Present", "Base Pair(s)" (biology), and "British Petroleum" (the company). There are approximately 170 links within Wikipedia that want the "Before Present" meaning, about 90 for "Base Pair(s)", but over 600 for British Petroleum. Judging by that, "British Petroleum" is by far the most common meaning. Yes, it's annoying; I don't like it, either, but it's reality. --Tugbug 21:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is too limited

bp is not just used for radiocarbon dating, i.e. for times less than 60 ka, but very generally in geology, palaeology and others. For palaeolithic times, i.e. those where many other physical measures besides radiocarbon are in common use, bp is the generally accepted way to state time and radiocarbon datings tend to be given as calibrated years BP to fall in line. Axel Berger 00:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've Never Run Into the Phrase "Before Physics"

We used to joke about events dated "After Present" (historical dates, not radiocarbon ones). Jacob Haller 21:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

but you just did! Jclerman 22:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

OMG, AP -- that's hilarious! I'm going to use it and everyone will think I'm SO clever! BTW, I know the guy who invented the "before physics" meaning (Hans Sues, the brother-in-law of my friend). I'll ask him if he intended it to be used seriously, as it sounds to me like a joke (as physics existed before 1950). if so, I'll remove the section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TechnoFaye (talk • contribs) 15:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Radiocarbon nonsense

I am a geophysicist. To say that this is only about radiocarbon or only about estimated ages is radically wrong. For example, BP is routinely used for ice cores, which are never dated with radiocarbon (i.e. [1] [2] [3]). BP means years before 1950 whether or not they are "estimated radiocarbon years" or "calendar years". Dragons flight 17:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note Axel Berger's comment above. Dragons flight 17:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Those BP years used for geologic time don't need to be anchored in AD 1950 as required for the BP radiocarbon years. The ice cores are anchored in AD 1950 because they are isotopically studied by geochemists in environmental isotopes labs (C14, and stable C, O, etc) and because the yrs are counted with an accuracy of 1 yr.Jclerman 18:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)u

They are expressed in years BP because counting backward is a useful convention for measuring the gelogic time, same as Ma, Ga, etc. for longer intervals. There is nothing that requires years BP to reference radiocarbon and normal usage in ice core work would be for "BP" to mean calendar years BP. Dragons flight 20:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on Rewrite

(This refers to the 00:08, 18 May 2007 edit by Tugbug.)

It's amazing that such a simple, ordinarily non-controversial topic should be the scene of so many reverts lately. Sadly, this is resulting in a messy article. In my experience, the best thing to do in such situations is a rewrite. I have done one. See what you think.

My guiding principles:

• BP years are used for all kinds of dating (ice cores have been mentioned, etc.), not just radiocarbon.
• However, BP years were standardized by people doing radiocarbon dating, with their particular application in mind. Thus, radiocarbon dating should be considered the primary and motivating application of the BP scale.
• BP always means years before 1950 when the uncertainty in dates is small, and years before some date relatively close to the present when the uncertainty is large. Thus, years before 1950 is always an acceptable definition.

  If anyone knows of any exceptions to this, speak up.

• The article does not need a separate section for every little topic that pops up.

  I've taken it from 6 sections to 3.

• Everything in the article should have particular relevance to the BP scale.

  Thus, I've removed the mention of cal BC, cal AD.

• References should be given in a form that allows them to be looked up.

  Thus, for now, I have removed references that were only a name and a year. I found and included a complete citation for the Arnold-Libby paper. I removed the Mook-van der Plicht reference, since I could not get at it due to a subscription requirement; I also can not tell what it was included for. References certainly can be replaced if they can be given in more detail and/or made accessible.

--Tugbug 00:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References need improvement

Reference 1 is to a website that uses the term but doe not establish a solid reference, which then refers to a paper which is in itself also uses BC/SD and is not a secondary reference to the origin or establishment of the term. I have added Template:Fact tags. Fireproeng (talk) 22:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gee Whiz

I didn't know we were 58 years in the future. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 19:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] B.P.

1. REDIRECT Before Present —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.165.5.174 (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)