Talk:Algebraic chess notation
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[edit] Other notation elements
Somewhere we should treat the other notation elements someone is likely to encounter when reading about chess:
E.g. from http://misc.traveller.com/chess/beginner/notation/notation.html
- = both sides are considered equal here
- +/= white is slightly better
- =/+ black is slightly better
- +/- white has a clear advantage
- -/+ black has a clear advantage
- 1-0 white won
- 0-1 black won
- .5-.5 draw
- 1/2-1/2 draw
- ! an excellent move
- ? a blunder
- !? an interesting move that may not be best
- ?! a dubious move, but not easily refuted
It isn't clear that the algebraic notation page is the right place. Jeff 18:56 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)
! a good move !! an excellent move ? a mistake ?? a blunder
These are also employed in descriptive notation, which was dominant in England and the United States from its early development in the mid-nineteenth century (later than algebraic) until the 1980s. Hence, Algebraic chess notation is not clearly the right place, although it is as logical as any other.
JStripes 00:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Is castling written with the letter O or the number 0?--Sonjaaa 11:31, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
- It's the number. At least, that's what I've always assumed, and it's what the FIDE Handbook uses in its description of algebraic notation. --Zundark 12:16, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- While many people might "think" of it as the number, the PGN standard uses the letter Capital-O in order not to confuse parsers which are forced to distinguish the numerical zero, which is used for other purposes. Please note that, while the FIDE handbook's font uses the number, I doubt if anyone at FIDE would insist that it is the number and not the letter; likely it would be described as what it really is, a "circle." I simply tell students to write two or three circles to note the move. --Doug 17:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Some PGN readers (Chess Informant Expert, for example) fail when they encounter castling written as numbers. Using the capital letters avoids this problem.--JStripes 01:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Should there also be mention of the notation Informator uses, which is algebraic, but with piece symbols instead of letter?--Gangster Octopus 23:07, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Can't see chess pieces in browsers
In my browsers (IE and Mozilla), I can't see the chess piece after "rather than by initials: for example". Is there a setting that allows me to see them? Bubba73
[edit] Algebraic notation in other languages?
Shouldn't this be left for the articles on algebraic notation written in the international wiki's? I don't see the point in telling someone the Russian algebraic notation in the English article, since that should be in the article on ru.wikipedia.org or wherever. --Malathion 05:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Sometimes English speakers read chess books or articles in other languages, and it helps to know what the abbreviations are. I think it should be restored. I got that list from the US Chess Federation rule book, so they saw fit to include it.
--Bubba73 05:49, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
It is not a rare occurance that an English speaker has or reads chess books or magazines that are written in a language he doesn't understand. (I have some.) But if he knows the abbreviations of the pieces he can follow the moves of the game or analysis, even if he can't read the text. Readers of other languages probably know what their abbreviations of the pieces are, but an English speaker who doesn't read the other language (and therefore doesn't know the words for the pieces in that language) can read the moves - if he knows their abbreviations in that language. --Bubba73 14:04, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, and support reinstating the table. It takes up little room, anyhow. Revolver 12:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Missing symbols
some of the symbols are not displayable on my web browser. Also, i dont know what they are supposed to be. either the symbol names (or a description of the symbol) should accompany those that cannot be displayed, or we should include a) pictures of the symbols, or b) see if the LaTeX engine can faithfully produce them. --Whiteknight 6 July 2005 03:50 (UTC)
[edit] On compensation
Next to the entry on compensation ("∞/= or =/∞ compensation for material deficit") somebody added the html comment "Which way round does this work?". I'm not sure I understand the question; the symbol means that the side with less material has compensation for it (it tends to imply adequate compensation). You can see which side is the one with more material and which is the one with compensation for it by looking at the position. Could somebody elaborate on what the problem is? Maybe the poster assumes one of the given signs means "White has compensation" and the other "Black has compensation" (not the case as far as I know; it's just that some publications use one, some the other)? --Camembert 13:08, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Correct--New In Chess puts the = on bottom, Informant on top. --silverpie 17:00, 22 March 2006 (USA-EST)
[edit] Replacing DN
The article says "Beginning in the 1970s, the abbreviated algebraic notation eventually came to replace descriptive chess notation, " That is in English language publications, right? Didn't other languages already use AN? Bubba73 (talk), 18:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I stopped being interested in chess after the descriptive notation went out and cold,calculating machine-friendly algebraic notation came in. 10010100 10001001 00100100 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.85.15.86 (talk • contribs).
Yes, of course it is true that algebraic was the standard notation in many other languages long before the 1970s. Edward Lasker used algebraic notation when he first published his book Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership in 1918; he was criticized for this, although according to Lasker algebraic was already the standard in "most other countries" (source: Edward Lasker, Chess Secrets I Learned from the Masters).
- OK, I'm going to make a small edit to the article based on that. Bubba73 (talk), 04:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ++ for double check?
Check (board game) says that sometimes "++" is used for double check (instead of for checkmate). Is that correct? Bubba73 (talk), 01:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
- This website says
the double plus symbol ( ++ ) sometimes is used to note checkmate [more rare and archaic in older historical books it was used for double check, more commonly now seen sometimes shown as dbl. ch.], added to the end of the notation, so it was used for double check at one time. 69.164.225.215 21:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] N suffix
Occasionally I have seen an N suffix used after certain moves (e.g. axb5N), but I have been unable to find any information as to what this suffix means. Does anyone have any ideas? TCrossland 13:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, it means that the move is a "Novelty", a move in the opening that hasn't been tried before in master games. Bubba73 (talk), 16:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] maltese
does anyone know how in maltese both queen and king have the same symbol? --Lucinos 09:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Exact format?
I'm wondering about the exact format of AN. Is there a space after the period and before the move: 1. e4 versus 1.e4? I prefer a space. What about a black move? I've seen 1...c5, 1. ...c5, 1. ... c5, and 1 ... c5. Is there a preference or standard? Bubba73 (talk), 04:51, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A new template has been created
I created a new template, Template:chess notation, to alleviate the need for sentences such as the following: "The French Defense begins with the following moves (see algebraic chess notation): 1.e4 e6 etc." The parenthetical comment interrupts the flow of the sentence, and also does not help readers who happen to skim the article and skip that sentence. Some articles that contain chess notation do not attempt to explain what it is. This new template will solve all that.
When you type {{chess notation}} at the top of an article (or anywhere else), the following message appears:
- This article uses algebraic notation to describe chess moves.
Of course, feel free to edit the template, as long as you maintain the link to this article. Correspondingly, it is critically important to maintain the high quality of this article because so many other articles link to it. YechielMan 21:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Endgame classification
I don't think the new Endgame classification section belongs in this article, as it is not algebraic notation. 66.188.102.79 07:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. It is more along the lines of GBR code for FEN. I think it needs its own article instead. Or moved to endgame. I'll think about it some more. Bubba73 (talk), 05:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] table of piece names
Just to let y'all know, at VIcipaedia's page on this, we have a really nice, much more complete table for piece names in various languages, if someone wants to copy it.--Ioshus(talk) 19:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't see why we can't just make a template for it...--Ioshus(talk) 15:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Done. Template:Chess names.--Ioshus(talk) 16:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] History
Could someone add notes on the history of algebraic notation? Who suggested the format? When was it first used? When did FIDE make it mandatory? Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.99.82.209 (talk) 00:09, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
- I assume that FIDE adopted it from the begining, in the 1920s. It was used in the 19th century. Bubba73 (talk), 19:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- I found this personal webpage that says that algebraic notation goes back to the early Arabic days, except that the numbers went in the other direction. It says that it was used in some 12th century French liturature and got its modern start in 1737 by Philipp Stamma. Bubba73 (talk), 23:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- I found another article [1] which may or may not be reliable. Can anyone find any verification for it? It said basically that until the late 1700s there was no real chess notation, just discription. Eventually this was abbreviated to descriptive notation, but in the late 1700s someone came up with algebraic notation, which took a while to catch on, especially in England. Obviously whoever writes this section would need to take better notes than I did! Rhinocerous Ranger (talk) 04:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
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- Phillip Stamma is generally given credit for the first published use of algebraic notation in the West—this would have been in 1737 or 1745. Hooper & Whyld say that his was the first use of coordinate notation (they call algebraic notation "standard notation", which seems to me to be an odd affectation) in modern chess, which I think would put any earlier uses back to Arabic manuscripts before the mid-15th century. I believe that there are Arabic manuscripts using a coordinate notation that is essentially algebraic notation. Staunton has a good appendix on chess notation in The Chess-Player's Handbook, and he describes Stamma's notation, along with others. (This would be a good source for an article section on the history of chess notation.) Our article on Stamma doesn't mention this yet. I think Richard Eale's Chess: The History of a Game has some images of Stamma's 1745 book (published in English) that show the notation as he used it. I'm sure that H.J.R. Murray wrote something about Stamma and algebraic notation too, but those books aren't right in front of me now. Quale (talk) 07:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kt
I've never seen Kt used in algebraic chess notation, only N. What's the source? -- Jao 12:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- It's only in the table of chess piece abbreviations, and it was commonly used in older descriptive chess notation where this table also appears. Perhaps we need a note explaining this. The section algebraic chess notation#Naming the pieces correctly uses only N for knight. Quale 15:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't realize it was a template, thanks for explaining it. I'm aware of its use in descriptive notation, but was surprised to find it in an article about algebraic notation. -- Jao 15:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Standard notation
The editors of the Oxford Companion to Chess insist on calling it "standard notation", saying algebraic notation is a "foolish name" as "no algebra is involved". I find this quite amusing. Is "standard notation" an alternative name widespread enough to note in the article?Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- It might be worth noting, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that "standard notation" is in widespread use. The name "algebraic" for this coordinate notation is long established, and I think that H.J.R. Murray even used the term in 1913. Quale (talk) 04:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Castling with Kg1???
How can a king castle into a corner square?? In the text it says: "For example, Kg1." WinterSpw (talk) 00:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. No such thing according to FIDE. [2] ChessCreator (talk) 00:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Bubba, WinterSpw question is unclearly written,. It's not about whether Kg1 is in the corner, the question is whether 'Kg1' is an acceptable notation of castling as stated the article says. Personally I doubt it is because FIDE doesn't say so, but I could be wrong. ChessCreator (talk) 15:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Chess notation
Chess notation duplicate topic? ChessCreator (talk) 01:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC) Forget that. ChessCreator (talk) 01:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] FIDE Handbook
All external links to appendix E of the FIDE Handbook are now broken. I can't find the appendices anywhere on the official website! What has happened? -- Jao (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- They have been moving servers for the last few days. Give it a few days more. SunCreator (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
