Talk:Ahl-e Haqq

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Dear writer , Although Ahl e Haqq tradition(s) seems a strictly closed cirle , not all Sufi orders are/have been so.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.185.76.150 (talk • contribs) 23:49, 13 October 2005

I have to say that Yezidism and Ahl-i-Haqq are different. One is definetely un-islamic, the other one is not

Yezidism and Ahl-i Haq are different, as Ahl-i Haq is a branch of Yaresanism. Both are also un-islamic and they are both sprung from the Yazdani religion(note the difference between YAZDANISM and YEZIDISM, as YEZIDISM is a branch of YAZDANISM).

Contents 1 Contradiction 2 Meaning of Ahl-i Haq 3 Cleanup 4 Page move 5 Ahl-e Haqq Text 6 Name 7 Reincarnation 8 Kakaie 9 Mother of Sulltan Sehak 10 Yazdanism???

[edit] Contradiction

There are similarities between Ahl-e-Haqq and the (Turkish-Kurdish) Alevis, though how closely these similarities point to evidence of a joint origin remains in dispute. Others see a similarity to the Yezidis, though much of this debate must remain speculation, as all these groups have few published writings and favour secretive religious practices.

Earlier in the article it is stated as fact that the order is derived from the Yezidi religion, yet this paragraph contradicts that sentence. SouthernComfort 01:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not a contradiction since Yaresanism, Alevism an Yezidism share the common roots to the ancient Yazdani religion, also known as the Cult of Angels, who fragmented to these three branches.

Kakaie's or Yarsani is the religion Yari. We are not Shia or Twelver Shia's. It is not needed to put that Twelver link on the page. Yari is its own religion with roots from Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Judaism. Yari's beliefs of re-incarnation and no judgement day puts us outside the bounds of Islam in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.183.108 (talk) 01:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%. This is why it's not under "Branches" in the Twelver template, but under "Related Movements." And other nominally Muslim groups also believe in reincarnation, such is Ismailis. This does not necessarily put them out of Islam: their other beliefs do. --Enzuru 02:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Do the Yaresan ever claim to be Muslim. They are often called by Muslims (I am not sure if this is Shi'ite, Sunni or both, but it is mentioned in the Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East and North Africa p. 82) well someone calls them "Alielahi" which in English is "defiers of Ali". This makes them seem clearly not at all Shi'ite or even Shi'ite related.

However I have had people tell me the Alevites are Shi'ites (the person was an expert on religious freedom in Turkey but no Alevite, so his assesment is not neccesarily valid) and the above mentioned Encyclopedia of the Modern Near East does say that the Yaresan are "closely related" to the Alevi, Bektashi, Alawi and Nusayris. It also says that Ahl-e Haqq is a "Hetrodox sect of Shi'ite Islam".

Yet IN THE SAME ARTICLE we read "The Ahl-e Haqq neither observe Muslim rites, such as daily praers and fasting during the month of Ramadan, nor share Islamic theology and sacred space". Thus, the wikipedia article may be internally inconsistent, but so are articles that were edited and published by means that are supposed to eliminate internal inconsistancies.

According to the article I have been siting the Ahl-e Haqq view Ali as one of the seven manifestations of God, but feel that Sultan Sohak, the fourth manifestation of God and the alleged founder of the sect according to this article (It is about all I really know on the Ahl-e Haqq) "overshadows" Ali. So I there are a lot of questions I have, but I think knowing if the Yaresan call themselves Muslim or consider themselves to be a seperate religion is important.Johnpacklambert (talk) 20:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Ahl-i Haq

Ahl-i Haq means "people of the spirit", the spirit being the highest power, keeping the balance between good and evil, darkness and light.

The term Ahl-i Haqq, is a misinterpretation of the word Haq or Hakk, and is not derived from the arabic word Haqq, meaning truth.

Also Ahl-i Haq is only (originally) the name of a branch of Yaresanism. This is described best in the External link on the article page: "Information to Yarsanism" Click forward on "Cult of Angels" then "Yaresanism"

I am Kakaie from Kirkuk Kurdistan and I we are knows as Kakaie or Yarsani's in Iraq, not many people recognize Ahl-i-haqq. I have also heard that Ahl-i-haqq is some what of a deragatory term to us and our population in Kurdistan of Iran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.105.246 (talk) 03:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Article needs to disambiguate between Yarsan (Kurds) and Ahl-e-Haqq (Lurs, Laks) and clarify the relationship. SouthernComfort 05:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The religion has followers both among Kurds and Lurs. The third incarnation of Divinity was Shah Khoshin in Luristan and the fourth one was Soltan Sohak in Hawraman.Heja Helweda 06:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the article is written in a confusing manner, making it seem like Yarsan and Ahl-e-Haqq are different faiths. Are there any distinctions between the sect of the Kurds and that of the Lurs/Laks? SouthernComfort 06:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The sources do not differentiate between them. "Yarsan" is just the local name for the religion, while the outsiders call them "Ahl-e Haqq" or "Ali ullahi".Heja Helweda 06:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

So "Yarsan" is also used by non-Kurdish adherents? SouthernComfort 06:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know Laks are a branch of Kurds [1]. It may be used among small groups of Lurs which are not Kurdish [2].Heja Helweda 23:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Complete confusion here. I will try to summarize: First theory states that Yarsan and Ahl-e-Haqq two different but first, Yarsan competely non-islamic, Ahl-e-Haqq is syncretic borrowing elements from heterodox Alevi Shia Second theory states that Yarsan and Ahl-e-Haqq are the same faith under different nmes following similar practices abdulnr 01:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said the article is a complete confusion - Yazdism, Ahli-E-Haqq and Alevis are all grouped into one thing. We should clearly separate it abdulnr 01:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yarsan and Ahl-i-Haqq are two branches of Yarsanism. Ahl-i-Haqq has officialy identified them selves more and more with shia-islam, this however is due to persecution by muslim neighbors and the iranian government, however it's like a front or cover to be able to practise Yarsanism without persecution, but they are still non-islamic.

Yazidism, Ahl-i-Haqq(Yarsanism) and Alevism are grouped due to their common relations and ancestor Yazdanism (note Yazdanism not Yazidism). Before the fragmentation the the faiths were one, Yazdanism. Yazdanism is also used as a academic term for the three faiths.

Could you provide a reference for this statement. Ahl-e-haqq recognizes Imam Ali as God - this is quite a big difference to me - between them and Yazdanism that has not recognized him as such. Do not add Alevism here, it is purely Islam-derived sect. abdulnr 02:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Se for example Izady, 1992. As for the difference between Ahl-i Haqq and Yazdanism, i belive thet you are reffering to Yezidism(not YAZDANism). YAZDANism(or the cult of angels)is a name for the thee religions of Yarsanism, Yezidism and Alevism. YAZDANism is also the name of the original religion before it was fragmented into the three religions metioned above.

As for the case of Alevism being an islam-derived sect. Alevism is not an islamic sect but a religion sprung from the original YAZDANism and related to Yarsanism and Yezidism. Alevism is however seen from outsiders as an islamic sect. This is however the same case as we have with Yarsanism. Yarsanism has only been seen as an islamic or sufi sect by outsiders, or has claimed to be islamic by Yarsans themselves to gain protection against muslim harrasment. However neither Yarsans or the (kurdish)muslim neighbors regard Yarsans as anything but a different religion, only outsiders do. This is also the case with the Alevis.

The biggest confusion above was found in the phrase "Lars/Laks". The Lars are a distict Iranian people, who live in Southern Iran. The Laks are a group who are part of the Kurdish people, although this is debated by some scholars. To make things more confusing Kurds are Iranian. At least both Kurds and Persians speak Iranian languages. Whether they are related ethnically and racially is a much more complexed question. Even linguistic boundaries and affinities get complexed since in Turkey they call the Kurds "Mountain Turks". If your head is not yet spinning you either know way more than I do or are just ignoring the confusion.Johnpacklambert (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia of The Modewrn Middle East" says that Ahl-e Haqq recognizes Ali as AN incarnation of God. However they also view Sultan Sohak as AN incarnation of God. Can You be Muslim and accept a prophet after Mohammad? Can you be Muslim and not practice Ramadan? Can you be Muslim and accept that God has taken human form? I do not know, and doubt there are definitive answers, but it seems that whether Ahl-e Haqq is an Islamic faith or not turns on how one answers those questions, as well as a few others.

[edit] Page move

The page was moved to "Ahl-E Haqq", I am wondering if this should have been "Ahl-e Haqq" (lowercase 'e'). I was about to fix this myself, but two page moves in one day seems a bit excessive, particularly if (for some reason) this ends up back at Yarsan. I will hold off for now. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Gyro, you are 100% correct. The E must be a lower case E, but for some crazy reason it only accepts a upper case. How do we make it lower case now. Thank you very much for caring!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What seems to have happened is that, from this revision history, Ahl-e Haqq was started on 6 July 2004 and was developed until on 8 January 2006[3] it was made into a redirect to Yarsan. That article shows its first edit as 24 November 2006,[4] and was moved to Ahl-E Haqq earlier today. The implication is that the move to Yarsan was by copy and paste, so the histories should really be merged in a move to Ahl-e Haqq if that's what's appropriate. Looks rather tricky to me, see Wikipedia:How to fix cut-and-paste moves#A troublesome case. It's probably something I could do, by moving the Ahl-e Haqq page before deleting it so as to keep its history archived but not merged. Best to raise the issue first at Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen to get advice from someone more experienced. . . dave souza, talk 21:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure that the "troublesome case" scenario applies, because (unless I've missed something) the histories don't really overlap, a couple of exceptions being these two consecutive edits from earlier today: [5], [6]. I see the first edit to Yarsan/current Ahl-E Haqq as being Dec 3 2005, but that was to redirect "Yarsan" to "Ahl-e Haqq"; the first "real" edit to "Yarsan" was Jan 8 2006, i.e. when the cut-and-paste move occurred. So it looks like a case of

1. temporarily deleting this article, Ahl-E Haqq;
2. moving Ahl-e Haqq to Ahl-E Haqq;
3. restoring the temporarily deleted Ahl-E Haqq edits (except maybe for the Dec 3 2005 edit); and
4. moving the whole thing back to Ahl-e Haqq, and in the process clobbering the redirect that would have been put there during the second step. (And from here, the whole thing could be moved more cleanly back to "Yarsan" - or some other name - if user consensus were to swing that way.)

The only part I'm not sure about is omitting the two aformentioned Ahl-e Haqq edits from today. I personally don't think it's a big deal, though it might look a little weird to an uninformed observer since these will be chronologically shuffled in. I'm happy to give this a try, as well, Dave. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it's rather late at night here now and my brain hurts just trying to work it out. I gather that's pretty much the "An easy case" situation, it's not something I've done so if you could tackle it that would be greatly appreciated. .. dave souza, talk 22:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Y Done, for the most part. The deleting and moving parts are complete (also took care of some talk page histories). I've taken care of all of the double-redirects; I will continue working on the regular (i.e., functioning) redirects, at least for a while. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ahl-e Haqq Text

Anyone have a list of the libraries listing old Kalam manuscripts outside of the United States?--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 11:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The name of the religion and community applied in the article should be changed. The term ahl-i haq is never used by the adherants and its a problematic term. A term that would be better and more neutral would be Yarí for the religion and Yarsan for the community. It should be mentioned in the article that the community is called ahl-i haq but not be used as it is today. A redirect should also be created for ahl-i haq to Yarí or Yarsan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.211.101.36 (talk) 21:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reincarnation

Is it truly beyond the bounds of Islam? Look at the Alawi groups(including Druze)! But then again Druze aren't exactly muslims...I guess it depends on how they interpreted the QuranDomsta333 (talk) 13:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

But we do not acknowledge the Quran or use it as our holy scripts, we have the Serenjam, its a completely different book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.105.246 (talk) 04:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither the Alevis (or alawis) nor the druze can really be called muslims. As in the case of the Alevis the Yarsan do not acknowledge the Quran, sunna and not many other islamic tenets and beliefs. In many cases they even contradict eachother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.208.209.7 (talk) 21:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kakaie

I think that we should definetly group Kakaie and Yarsan, since we are also known as Kakaie's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.105.246 (talk) 04:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mother of Sulltan Sehak

The article states: "In the Fourth Epoch, the primary avatar is held to be Sultan Sahak. It is said that he was given birth by Mama Jelale, a Kurdish virgin, and as in the case of Mary, it had been a virginal conception."

This is wrong Mama Jelale was the mother of Sha Xúshín (Shah Xoshin) not Sulltan Sehak whos mother was Dayerek Rezbar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.225.3.225 (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yazdanism???

I have moved this discussion to Talk:Yazdânism as it has more to do with the Yazdânism article than this one. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC) I also left a comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kurdistan in hopes that someone else could weigh in at Talk:Yazdânism. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)