Talk:59th Guards Rifle Division

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[edit] Campaigns in Romania and Bulgaria

I'm unable to verify the Army with which this division served after Yassy-Kishinev Offensive, and only in the initial Kishinev-Izmail phase. It then appears with the 2nd Ukranian Front in the Belgord operation a month later, so it seems that the division. Although it was the 2nd Uranian Front that conducted the Debreccen Offensive, the 46th Army was not a part of it, so I'm not sure what Army the division was with. Its difficult to accept that the 46th could have been an active participant in the Debrecen operation if it is given as a participant Army in the first phase of the Budapesht Offensive (Kechkemet-Budapesht offensive Кечкемет-Будапештская наступательная) that begun when the Debrecen ended-- mrg3105mrg3105 07:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

(copied from Buckshot06's talk page.) Buckshot06, the Soviet OOB in the BoD article is taken from the BSSA. The German official history (volume 8, p. 872) notes that Tolbuhkin had to give up the 46th Army and the 7th artillery division to Malinovksy's 2nd UkF prior to the Debrecen Operation. In any event, 46th Army was on the far southern flank of the Debrecen Operation, and according to the maps of the Soviet official history, moved along the axis Szeged - Velencei Lake from October 12 until December 20. The German official history map shows the 37th GRC (of which 59th GRD was a part in November) about 40 kilometers SE of Budapest on 3.11.44. Certainly, the 59th GRD was not part of the battle for the city of Debrecen itself, but the Soviet official history describes the operations of the 46th Army during this period as part of the Debrecen Operation. As well, Poirier and Conner show the 59th GRD as having been part of the Debrecen Operation although it is not listed among the official battle honors they note for the division.

The Battle of Debrecen article itself is not really mine, I made major edits to it because the articles previous POV was so pro-German as to have implied the Soviets suffered a major defeat at Debrecen which was a curious interpretation of events. You can view my editor's notes for the article at Talk:Battle of Debrecen. user:W. B. Wilson Inserted by Buckshot06Buckshot06 (talk) 10:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Also found this on samsv.narod.ru: Ведет свою историю от 197-й стрелковой дивизии (2-го формирования), которая 3 января 1943 года была преобразована в 59-ю гвардейскую стрелковую дивизию. Входила в состав войск 3-й гвардейской (уточнить) , 6-й, а также 46-й армий. Участвовала в Сталинградской битве, в Ворошиловградской, Донбасской, Запорожской, Никопольско - Криворожской, Одесской, Ясско - Кишинёвской наступательных операциях, в освобождении Румынии и Болгарии, в Дебреценской, Будапештской и Венской наступательных операциях. За боевые заслуги удостоена почётного наименования "Краматорская" (сентябрь 1943), награждена орденами Красного Знамени, Суворова 2-й степени, Богдана Хмельницкого 2-й степени; свыше 4 тысяч её воинов награждены орденами и медалями, 19 удостоены звания Героя Советского Союза.
My Russian is practically non-existent, but isn't "Дебреценской" the adjectivial form of "Debrecen"? Cheers--W. B. Wilson (talk) 08:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is the list of Armies participating in Debrecen operation from http://www.soldat.ru/force/sssr/rkka.html

Дебреценская наступательная 06-28.10 2 УФ - 7 гв.А, 27, 40, 53А, 6 гв.ТА, 5 ВА, КМГ, 1, 4А(румын.) As can be seen, neither the 3rd Guards, the 6th or the 46th armies are there because it was the 2nd Ukranian Front that conducted the operation.
At Budapesht the division is still with the 3rd Ukranian Front, 37th Rifle Corps: 3 УФ: 46 А - 37 ск (генерал-майор Колчук Федор Самойлович) в составе: 83 мор. сбр (полковник Смирнов Леонид Константинович), 316 сд (полковник Чеботарев Григорий Сергеевич), 320 сд (полковник Бурик Иосиф Захарович), 108 гв. сд (полковник Дунаев Сергей Илларионович), 59 гв. сд (генерал-майор Карамышев Георгий Петрович);
Now the next operation the 46th Army is with is the Секешфехервар-Эстергомская наступательная 20.12.44-13.02.45 3 УФ 4 гв.А, 26, 46А, 17 ВА The region is now called Komárom-Esztergom and if you look a the map of Hungasy you will see that it is located quite a good distance from Debrecen. Given that no unit of the 3rd Ukranian Front is credited with participating in Debrecen, and that two months later the division was credited with participating in Budapesht via Esztergom, I would say that the samsv.narod.ru entry is wrong.-- mrg3105mrg3105 13:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Except that both the German and Soviet official histories note the 46th was transferred to the 2nd UkF prior to the Debrecen Operation, and the maps accompanying the Soviet official history show the 46th engaged in more or less steady operations from the beginning of October through the close of December -- with no indication of any real pause made before the Budapest operations got underway. I think that this question can only really be closed by examining the staff logs of the 59th GRD during the period in question; unfortunately none of us have access to Soviet archives (at least that I'm aware of) Cheers--W. B. Wilson (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, this was an interesting exercise :o) I looked up the combat history of the 46th Army (should have beforehand) and the reason it was not included in the Debrecen Operation is because it was on the southern flank of the 2nd Ukranian Front in the Szeged - Centa region (under 2UF command from 20th October). During this time to mid-February it was a part of both the 2UF and the 3UF (С конца октября 1944 г. до середины февраля 1945 г. в составе 2-го и 3-го (с 14 декабря) Украинских фронтов) until again transfered to the 2UF for the Budapesht Op. to the end of the war. I'm not going to be insistent since it was assigned to the 2UF for the duration of the operation, but it was a very flank-guard participation, which is why it doesn't feature in the Debrecen unit roll. Essentially it was moving along before and during the Debrecen op. in the Western direction on the AO boundary between the fronts, and then was switched to the northern Hungary after it. It does bring into question how units are counted in the descriptions of operations though (food for thought). I tend to be more a scholar of what happened then OOBs, so I tend to look at active participants rather then total units assignments. Cheers--mrg3105mrg3105 23:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Battle for Kramatorsk and other notes

  • I have found veteran's recollection on the battle for the city, and there is several pages worth. Do you wan them? There is even a divisional song. It will take time to translate that though
  • The participation of the division in Debrecen operation is somewhat suspect. I was unable to find a second source beyond Poirier and Conner, however I have to admit that I didn't look hard.
  • In the 1990s OOB there is a weid little bit of Russian I left. It says that the AT MT-LBTs were there but without the anti-tank weapons - in the Anti-Aircraft unit. I should hope not. I think its a mistake in the original translation, and the unit should be Anti-Tank. What puzzles me is what were the weapons that were not there?
MT-LBs are prime-movers; basically tractors. They could have been pulling anything. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I would venture to guess that the division had 100mm AT guns which were withdrawn but that were never replaced with 9P149 "Shturm-S". The guns were withdrawn, leaving the tractors to be sent to be retrofitted and modified, but it never happened, hence it says MT-LBT without the anti-tank weapons fitted.--mrg3105mrg3105 01:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I didn't do references - sorry -- mrg3105mrg3105 13:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Battle honours

These need to be cleaned up. Soviet units don't have Battle honours as such, each being reflected by either an addition of a honorific name or an award. However there is a database of Liberation of cities which lists units that participated in the liberation of more significant population centres. So the possibility is to use: Operation participation
Award for a battle
participation in liberation of a city
or a combination of all three?-- mrg3105mrg3105 00:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)