Template talk:Philippines political divisions

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I rather choose, "Territorial Disputes" as is the practice in international law to refer to areas where sovereignty is contested by other nations. If you were to use "Claimed possessions" you can simply ask "How can you claim something you possess?"

The Spratlys should be among these disputed territories, as its sovereignty remains to be contested among the claimant countries. The Philippines has control of 7 or 8 islands in the Spratlys, these islands compose the Municipality of Kalayaan in Palawan. However it also lays claim to all the islands and islets within the line we normally see in Philippine maps, most of which is under the control of other claimant countries, hence it would not be right to say, that the Philippines is in total possession of the areas it claims in the disputed archipelago. Hence, the Spratylys should be included in the disputed territories.

ARMM should be referred to ARMM, because not all of Muslim Mindanao which also covers its historical extent, is within the jurisdiction of the ARMM government. Scorpion prinz 11:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Replies:
  • I was going to revert back to "Territorial disputes" (TD) but apparently you changed it back to claimed possessions (CP). Either way is fine with me.
  • The Philippine-occupied and administered Spratly Islands is already at Kalayaan, Palawan, which is further under Palawan. It will be redundant if we'll add Spratly Islands at the TD/CP.
  • Automomous Region in Muslim Mindanao is called "Muslim Mindanao" because its under special region. Calling it in its full name will be redundant. Also, it will not be misleading because it links to the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao article, not to the Muslim Mindanao or Muslim Filipino article.
--Howard the Duck 11:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The government chose the preposition "IN" not "OF" to refer to the region, because not all of Muslim Mindanao is autonomous. Hence, it will be politically incorrect to simply refer to the region as Muslim Mindanao. Scorpion prinz 11:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
How about if we display "In Muslim Mindanao"? --Howard the Duck 11:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it is redundant? If it is so, what about Mountain Province? Scorpion prinz 13:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
(Since you didn't answer my question) How about if we display "In Muslim Mindanao"? --Howard the Duck 14:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to retain Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao as it is. Ü Scorpion prinz 17:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'll concede this. How about Spratly Islands? Are you in favor of their removal? --Howard the Duck 03:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm for its retention, since we do not control all the islands within the boundary we claim in the Spratlys. Scorpion prinz 08:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
But they are under Palawan already, since the islands that we claim are the islands that we control; we don't claim the entire Spratlys, and Kalayaan, Palawan fits the bill. --Howard the Duck 10:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
FYI we actually claim all the islands within that perimeter we see on our maps, but we only control 7 islands, other claimant countries control islands, i.e. we also claim Itu Aba (Taiwan), back in the 70s Philippine troops were repulsed by Taiwanese troops. Mischief Reef is the most famous as China built structures on it, even if its within our claim. So its not exactly correct to refer only to the 7 islands as the territories we claim. Scorpion prinz 12:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
IMO, if we display "Spratly Islands", it means that we claim/dispute all of them.
Not really, it is clear we only claim part of it. Nor referring to the area we control as Kalayaan Group of Islands is not also specific, because the Philippines uses that naming convention to the entire archipelago, even those outside our claimed baseline. It's a fact, that the status of the Spratlys remains to be disputed. Hence, we cannot just simply nix it out of that list, it might provide the impression, that it has been resolved. Scorpion prinz 13:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] ARMM

Going back, it should only be Autonomous Muslim Mindanao, we have to omit "Region", Mountain Province should stay at Mountain Province since it the standard short form "Mountain Province". Or, if you really don't like that, ARMM will do. --Howard the Duck 12:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

These are all naming conventions, never has ARMM been referred to Autonomous Muslim Mindanao, so have the full name itself. Similar to Province: Mountain Province (because thats the way it is called), much like if you name the cities, others may go without the 'City' after them, but that's never the case with Quezon City, nor refer to it as City of Quezon. Scorpion prinz 13:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I really still it should be "Muslim Mindanao". For example in {{Subdivisions of Russia}}, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast is simply called "Jewish" while it is under the Autonomous oblast section. --Howard the Duck 11:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't follow. We call it officially Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao. Scorpion prinz 00:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The official name of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast is "Jewish Autonomous Oblast", yet in the navigation box its called "Jewish", following that, ARMM should be "Muslim Mindanao", or "in Muslim Mindanao". Another: the official name is "Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China" but in {{Province-level divisions of the People's Republic of China}}, it is simply called as "Hong Kong". --Howard the Duck 04:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I was mainly pointing to the area of ARMM is not all of Muslim Mindanao, hence if you refer it to it as Muslim Mindanao it might be construed that all of Muslim Mindanao is autonomous, there remains to be 10 provinces that are considered to be part of Muslim Mindanao, which is not part of the autonomous government. For Hong Kong, SAR, Jewish Oblasts there are no other areas to be contested for inclusion in their territory. Scorpion prinz 05:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok we should add "in Muslim Mindanao" to indicate that the autonomous region is in Muslim Mindanao, not the whole "Mislim Mindanao". Because if we'll put display "Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao" under "Autonomius Regions", it'll be like Autonomous Region Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao. --Howard the Duck 07:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
So what about Mountain Province??? Shall you then call it as Mountain??? When the British list their territories - do they just simply refer to British Antarctic Territory as British Antarctic? or the British Indian Ocean Territory as British Indian Ocean? They don't. Just like in Australia, when they list their territories do they simply say Northern? or Australian Capital? They will always have Territory/ies follow it. For Hong Kong, it has always been its short form. HK, SAR is its long-form comparing it to ARMM, it has no short form, it is in itself already its short form. France is a short form, French Republic is the long form. Comparing it from one country to another is for me, inappropriate because each country has its own naming conventions, for the Philippines we have never referred to ARMM in a short form other than in its entirety. Another thing, if you list all republics in the world, do you simply list Czech Republic and Dominican Republic as Czech or Dominican/Dominica - we don't? So go figure. Scorpion prinz 13:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
"Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao"'s short form is ARMM. However in navigation templates, we tend to omit "City" and/or "country". However all of the province/city's official names are in the "Province of Foo" or "City of Foo", all except of Mountain Province where it is "Mountain Province" (see the seals on the right).
About Czech Republic and Dominican Republic, it's the same thing, every country goes by "Republic of Foo", or "Kingdom of Foo", but in this case, it's Foo Republic, hence Czech Republic, and Dominican Republic. Also, Slovakia also went by the name of Slovak Republic, but since Slovakia sounder better, they stuck to that name. How about Czechia? Also, there's Dominica, so Dominican Republic can't do anything about it.
Now since ARMM doesn't represent the whole of Muslim Mindanao, instead of "of", it goes by "in". So, in keeping with "Province in Foo" phraselogy, we omit the "Autonomous Region in", and that leaves as with Muslim Mindanao. But since it is often understood that once you omit "Autonomous Region in", it is "Autonomous Region of", we add "in" before "Muslim Mindanao" so that it'll become "in Muslim Mindanao". I really don't understand why you are opposed in leaving it as "in Muslim Mindanao" considering there's only one autonomous region in the country, and it's understood that it's "in Muslim Mindanao".--Howard the Duck 14:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I bet you are aware that ARMM is an acronym. The region's short form as well as its long form is Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao. There's no short form for it. It is already in its base form, no need to further shorten it. Let's keep it at using what is the accepted naming conventions. Mountain Province is indeed Mountain Province, it's the base form of the province's name. I don't know how will you sort out British Antarctic and British Indian Ocean as the short form of British Antarctic Territory and British Indian Ocean Territory, respectively when they are listed under British Territories. I don't know why you do also insist of shortening Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao as "in Muslim Mindanao" in reference to the said region. Never has it ever been referred to as "in Muslim Mindanao" when we talk of autonomous region/s in the Philippines. If you can cite news report using the base form you want to use, I'd be enlightened. Something like... autonomous regions in the Philippines "in Muslim Mindanao". Scorpion prinz 21:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Scorpion prinz. :p Coffee 01:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast isn't referred to as "Jewish" in Russian media. The reason why I'd prefer "in Muslim Mindanao" is to balance other regions, which are simply "Ilocos", "Central Visayas", "Davao", etc. "in Muslim Mindanao" fits the ball, and it isn't wrong to say "im Muslim Mindanao". A navigation templates seeks to summarize, to give an overview. --Howard the Duck 16:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
But what about British Indian Ocean Territory, British Antarctic Territory, Australia's Northern Territories, Canada's Northwest Territories? What I'm underscoring here is the standard naming convention. I vividly recall, my almanacs when I was small, during the time of the Soviet Union, they never referred to their republics as merely Russian Soviet Federated Socialist but would always have Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic, Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic (Kazakh SSR), Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (Ukrainian SSR), etc. So why use in Muslim Mindanao, if you'd go with that I'll bat for Mountain instead of Mountain Province. But that is really silly. Scorpion prinz 10:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
(Reindented). The simple form is not Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic or Russian Soviet Federated Socialist but "Russia." I've heard someone called it "British Indian Ocean". So instead of linking ARMM and "Other regions", I've figured to list the hierarchy of the LGUs replacing the autonomous region pane, Regions, Cities, Municipalities and Barangays. --Howard the Duck 14:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Heard is different from used. Regions are not really considered a government unit (except for ARMM) thats why they dont have governments, it only facilitates better adminitration of LGUs. Scorpion prinz 14:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This debate is moot since I changed it already. The new links will give more info than a link about ARMM and the regions. --Howard the Duck 15:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regions

Do you guys think that, instead of the "Autonomous region" section with ARMM, we could just include all 17 regions and have Template:Philippine regions redirect to this template? --Coffee 11:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This can be a touchy issue but since only one region has real political power, only ARMM has to be included. Also, if we'll include them, then it's like previously deleted {{Philippines}} template. Also, how are we going to name the regions? "Ilocos" or "Ilocos Region"? Just like in ARMM, I wanted it to be simply "Muslim Mindanao", not "Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao" because it removes the simplicity. --Howard the Duck 11:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Ilocos can be Ilocos, so as Bicol. Cordillera too. but not really for ARMM. Scorpion prinz 05:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Go with the acronym/roman forms: I, II, III, IV-A, IV-B, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIII, CAR, ARMM, NCR. Short and sweet. --seav 16:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I like that better. --Howard the Duck 16:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
If no one objects, I'll implement this. --Howard the Duck 14:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Provinces

The list is difficult to read as one cell of a table maybe change it to a bulleted or numbered list instead? Also multi-word prov's should have & n b s p ;(no-break-space) between each part so as not to split between lines.
I'll play around with this in my "User sandbox".
Mkouklis 10:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This was loosely patterned on {{USPoliticalDivisions}}. --Howard the Duck 10:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Provinces cont.

I'm trying to make this section READABLE to someone whom is not in the Philippines as it is many places are breaking onto the next line examples the province of "Lanao del
Sur" | Camarines
Norte" and the rest...
--Mkouklis 07:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

How about formatting it this way: [[Lanao del Norte|Lanao del Norte]]? IMHO, I don't see nothing wrong with the previous format. --Howard the Duck 07:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redesign

I liked the previous content, but I like the formatting of the current one, so why not place the all of the provinces here, then provide links tp regions, cities and other divisions, plus the disputed territories? --Howard the Duck 08:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too • or | Not too • "|" ?

--Mkouklis 14:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC) • or | which looks better between the entries?

Doesn't matter to me, IMHO. --Howard the Duck 15:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)