Talk:Principality of Sealand

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Contents 1 Message from Sealand 2 Olympic medal? 3 Fire and related events 4 References 5 Coup attempt 6 Titles 7 reliable source 8 E mare libertas 9 Gypsies 10 Passports 11 Achenbach 12 Sealand News 13 E Mare Libertas

[edit] Message from Sealand

I have received a response from the government of Sealand. I would request that at least the two most involved editors in this discussion, Gene poole and Onecanadasquarebishopsgate, and anyone else who has a significant interest in this article, ensure that their e-mail is enabled and let me know when they have done so to allow me to forward to them the message I have received so that we can all discuss this new information. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 16:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks John Carter, it seems that Sealand only considers itself a microstate. The email also tells us that Sealand News' editor and publisher are not linked with the government, and that information on the Principality has significant errors. Does that mean that Sealand News is less reliable as a source?

I'll change the article to what I suggested earlier (so that it follows the convention). Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't yet sighted any email on this subject, so I'm working blind.

The blog clearly contains a great deal of information not documented elsewhere which could only possibly have come from "official" sources, so the claim that there is "no link" is a bit disingenuous - particularly when all the parties involved are almost certainly in personal contact. There is obviously some link, although the precise nature of it remains to be determined.

If the blog doesn't mirror the views of the Bates family, but nonetheless has access to "official" information, then it must by definition constitute an independent source which should - in the absence of evidence to the contrary - be considered reliable.

Of course none of this changes the fact that Sealand actively participates in micronation exhibitions and conferences whenever it has the opportunity to do so - and emphatically avoids participation in conferences of microstates. A case of actions speaking louder than words. --Gene_poole (talk) 00:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

No, surely the default is to consider it unreliable. Anybody can publish a website. John, please forward the email to me too, thanks. --kingboyk (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, that the official documents of any government are not necessarily considered the most reliable sources. They are useful for several factors, and relevant information on official statements from such sources are generally considered very reliable, but they are not necessarily considered the most reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Carter (talk • contribs) 14:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that WP:SPS shows that Sealand News is not reliable. Should Sealand News be removed from this article as a source? Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 18:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sealand News is the designated official news site of the subject of this article, and it contains much useful information which is not published anywhere else. It should certainly not be removed. --Gene_poole (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that there is no good justification for saying that Sealand News is unreliable. The statement from the government is that it is independent, and that is a far different matter. It is almost certainly as reliable a source as most any other in matters such as these. John Carter (talk) 22:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't work like that John. You have to provide evidence that it is reliable. The default is unreliable, especially for web sources. Some useful questions for proving reliability might be (off the top of my head): Who are the publishers? What are their credentials? Is the resource relied on or considered authoratative within the area of knowledge in which it operates? See WP:RS and WP:V. I haven't actually looked at the email yet, mind you. --kingboyk (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Corrected a typo. --kingboyk (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably true. However, it clearly is not a "Self-published source", as per the objection raised, as it is not directly published by Sealand itself, but rather an independent entity. It may disqualify on other bases, but not that one. John Carter (talk) 23:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The requirements actually got stricter by that revelation :) As I understand it, a self published source can be used as evidence of what they said or claim and for basic biographical info. As a 3rd party source it's usable for nothing unless it meets WP:RS. --kingboyk (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Olympic medal?

This article claims: "Matt Hyland of London, Ontario became Sealand's first official Bronze Medalist at the 2004 Summer Olympics. His victory was in high jump." No source is provided, and the claim conflicts with an article about the Olympics which states that Jaroslav Bába of the Czech Republic won the Olympic bronze in the men's high jump at the 2004 Olympics. Aridd (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I noticed that too. I am not sure if I should delete it so I moved it to a better section. I never heard of this claim before though, and Google does not mention it either. A claim that is not true, perhaps? Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 18:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Given that it's unsourced and contradicted by other information, I think we can remove it. Which someone apparently already has. Aridd (talk) 08:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This medal was won by Joan Lino Martínez Armenteros User:Npnunda —Preceding comment was added at 03:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

John Lino Martinez did not win the medal for Sealand. I was just posting who won the medal in question. Matt Hyland didn't win the bronze for high jump John Lino Martizez did for spain http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/athens2004/track_field/results?medals —Preceding unsigned comment added by Npnunda (talk • contribs) 21:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fire and related events

I've just read the section on 2006's fire for the first time, and I can't say I believe a word of it - apart from the fire itself, which was widely reported. Where did the story about the crazed female attacker come from? Unless there's a reputable source supporting it I propose to delete it as a fictional insertion. --Gene_poole (talk) 03:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

This section was added on 29 Feb 2008 by User:Editor70 (Talk | contribs). It is their only contribution to date. The story looks dubious to me too, especially in the absence of a citation to a reliable source. There are some errors, such as the typo "intiaied" and a damaged "ref" tag. I did a quick search for characteristic words from this contribution but wasn't able to find a clear source of copying. --Jdlh | Talk 19:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I think even if an unidentified female crash-landed by parachute onto Sealand it would have been noticed - that is if you can even specifically use Sealand as a landing zone. There isn't even a single reference. Let's replace it with the previous, referenced version - even Google can't find a result for this. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 20:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Fiction removed. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 20:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

Why are there email addresses in the references section? I don't even know if they are real - should we remove them? Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 17:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Coup attempt

what was the legal status of the coup? certainly actions in international waters could be prosecuted under piracy laws, and participating in a coup would be illegal. From where did the helicopter attack launch. what type of arms were involved? is this a joke, or was it a real conflict? What was the motivation of the coup? Rds865 (talk) 02:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It has always been recorded as a real event of Sealand's history by the Sealandic prime minister. However different sources describe the event in different amounts of detail. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 10:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

you can buy a title from sealand here. http://www.redsave.com/products/Become-a-Lord,-Lady,-Baron-or-Baroness,,21 does anyone know if it is legitimate? Rds865 (talk) 04:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The titles are recognised by the Principality of Sealand, and the there is a link to the titles from the official Sealand website. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 10:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] reliable source

is http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=188 a reliable source? it mentions Micheal treatment when kidnapped, banns on drinking and smoking, as well as other rules and a possible takeover plan by the UK. Rds865 (talk) 06:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Similarly, is http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Carchive%5C200007%5CFor20000728b.html? It has good info, but there are possibly some errors. The Dark Overlord (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] E mare libertas

If they had learned some Latin, they would have known that it is "E mari libertas" (ablative and not accusative). MaartenVidal (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

This has been noticed before and it is mentioned in the article, however Sealand officially uses "E Mare Libertas". Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 10:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gypsies

Where did the content about "Sealandish gypsies" come from? I propose to delete it as vandalism unless someone can show there's some basis in reality to the statement. --Gene_poole (talk) 06:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I deleted it without reading this comment. Agreed it was nonsense and probabaly non-notable even if sourced. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Passports

I have read in several places that the fake passports were given out by Achenbach. Can anybody confirm this? The Dark Overlord (talk) 21:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Achenbach

I have heard of many differient versions of the assault story, many of which give the leader differient names, such as Gernot Putz^[1]. Could somebody try to confirm the real storyThe Dark Overlord (talk) 21:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Lonely Planet names the person as Achenbach. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 08:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sealand News

It seems Sealand News has removed its "facts" page - probably after it was decided to send Sealand an e-mail about the word "micronation". After quickly searching for "micronation" in the other pages and not finding it, it is possible that they have been asked not to use the word as a description anymore. If this is true, this can affect the article in the future. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 08:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I found one other use of the term; I expect there are many others. Nothing changes. --Gene_poole (talk) 12:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You probably mean when they use "micronation" in list of news stories. That was on April 21st, they could have been notified by Sealand afterwards. Let's not say nothing changes or even anything changes until we are sure. We'll probably know more when they replace the page. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 13:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] E Mare Libertas

Ive translated "E Mare Libertas", it means Out of Sea, Freedom, not From the sea, freedom. --The Republic of Ben 10 (talk) 14:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sealand names its motto as From the Sea, Freedom. There has been discussion over whether the Latin is correct, but this article only needs to refer to Sealand's interpretation. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 10:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)