Talk:Prince Louis of Battenberg

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Prince Louis of Battenberg is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.

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As for his illegitimate daughter, the alleged reliability of that statement differs much between this article and Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma. --Jao 16:34, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Rewrote article to correct errors and incorporate additional info. But much should go in articles on his parents, sibs and the Battenberg/Mountbatten family.Lethiere 14:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

   * His Illustrious Highness Count Louis of Battenberg
   * His Serene Highness Prince Louis of Battenberg
   * Louis Mountbatten
   * (2nd) Marquess of Milford Haven

Afaik there was no previous marquisate of Milford Haven so it's not the second creation and he was the first holder of the title. Either way (2nd) makes no sense.Alci12 17:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this was wrong. I'm wondering if the page should really be here. For most of his life he was Prince Louis of Battenberg, and he achieved his greatest significance - as First Sea Lord - under this name. john k 17:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It's one of those cases where neither option is satisfactory. While the 'historians' think 'Louis of Battenberg' it means nothing to anyone else. Considering that he 'renounced' his foreign titles perhaps this is the right place though I'm perfectly happy to put this to talk_peerage etc to find a consensus. I had left the Louis Mountbatten in, as I assume someone thought they were being very correct as there was a 72hr gap between his renouncing the titles and getting his peerage. I'm not sure it really matters tbh but someone may object.Alci12 18:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

That's sort of the way I feel — it would make me feel slightly awkward putting it under a title he specifically renounced. (As for the 72 hour gap, during those 72 hours he was known as the slightly more impressive-sounding "Admiral The Rt Hon. Sir Louis Mountbatten, GCB, GCVO, KCMG".) Proteus (Talk) 07:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

True though his PC was 1921 iirc so surely no Rt Hon.Alci12 10:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

He was appointed in November 1914, presumably as compensation for being forced to resign as First Sea Lord. You're probably thinking of his promotion to Admiral of the Fleet, which was indeed in 1921, just before his death. Proteus (Talk) 11:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No doubt as I wasn't amending the article I didn't check the details. If you have his final post noms they aren't in the article atm.Alci12 09:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No move (although I don't see "Prince Louis of Battenberg" really discussed as a plausible alternative; the point of contention was apparently von). Duja► 10:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

For most of his life he was Prince Louis of Battenberg, and he achieved his greatest significance - as First Sea Lord - under this name. --Toddy1 04:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean Prince Louis of Battenberg? Charles 04:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It is perfectly normal for members of the German aristocracy to have either von or zu' at start of their family name. His real family name was von Battenberg.--Toddy1 17:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You're speaking to someone with "von" in his family name. Charles 19:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

We us English not German on the English wikipedia. Hence his wife is Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine not Prinzessin Viktoria von Hessen und bei Rhein. DrKiernan 17:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it's also a mixture as in German he would be Ludwig von Battenberg. DrKiernan 17:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Two key points:

(1) Louis von Battenberg was a victim of racism. He lost his job as First Sea Lord because he was German. Obscuring the point that he had a blatantly German name is inappropriate.

(2) People in England are familiar with German names like von Moltke, von Hindenburg, and von Trapp. These names are never written of Moltke, etc. The convention in English with surnames beginning with von is that the correct form is to include the von and that omitting the von altogether is a convenient shorthand.--Toddy1 18:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Some key points:

(1) Battenberg is a place and a title was created for it. For Hindenburg and Trapp, there were no titles and nothing to be "of".

(2) The use of the title Prince(ss) of Battenberg is not obscuring a blatantly German name. Obviously Battenberg is blatantly German if it has to be anglicized to Mountbatten.

(3) There are people like me who speak English and are not from nor live in England. Also, Battenberg is not a surname, it is a titular designation. Also, omitting the "von" is not a convenient shorthand. One never properly speaks of "von Hindenburg" or "von Trapp", but of "Hindenburg", etc. Charles 19:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Charles Are you Austrian? An Austrian I used to work with told me that they had abolished all the vons and zus in Austria. In Germany they have not. So aristocratic German military officers retain their correct names (even those in the British Army). To suggest that such a person was not a 'von' was recognised as insulting.--Toddy1 21:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

My family is German but that does not matter or factor into this discussion. Also, Prince Louis dropped the use of the princely title before Austria abolished all titles of nobility and prepositions, so I don't know how that equates into the argument of being insulting. Indeed, it would be insulting to be told one is not of sufficient rank or status to translate their preposition, that it is only a name and nothing more, which is essentially what you are saying about Prince Louis. Charles 22:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose I don't like the "von" bit. DrKiernan 06:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose As above, and per my comment copied over from WP:RM. Charles 16:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose In the English-language literature, he is not known as "Prince Louis von Battenberg". Noel S McFerran 14:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment about the discussion and to the closer: I think it was originally requested as "von", but the request was later changed to "of", and several debaters seem to have missed this, continuing to debate on the "von" vs "of" issue. As agreeing I am about "von" being the wrong place, I wouldn't have anything against an immediate re-request for "Prince Louis of Battenberg". -- Jao 10:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I tried to say in the closing statement, yes, it was closed without prejudice for a re-run. Apparently, the previous debate side-tracked. Duja► 09:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-requested move

The result of the proposal was uncontested move. DrKiernan 10:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Re-requesting move to Prince Louis of Battenberg:

The previous discussion sidetracked and was closed without prejudice.
He achieved his greatest significance under this name, as First Sea Lord, and he is probably most noted for having had to resign as First Sea Lord because of this Germanic name.
His more famous son also changed his name from Prince Louis of Battenberg to Louis Mountbatten, also became First Sea Lord, and also became Admiral of the Fleet. The name Louis of Battenberg typically refers to the father and Louis Mountbatten to the son, as the names under which each achieved his greatest fame.

Morinao 18:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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Talk:Prince Louis of Battenberg

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[edit] Titles

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Re-requested move

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