Talk:House of Stuart

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- Technically didn't the Stuart (or Bruce family) have a short reign in pre-British Ireland under the rule of Robert the Bruce's younger brother Edward Bruce. Who was crowned by the O'Neill clan and recognized by all of Ireland's noble clans as King Edward 1st of Ireland from 1315; until his death in 1318. Should he be included? (Chris Gilmore)

OK, I never thought of this before, but shouldn't the dynasty name have changed after Mary Queen of Scots? (Her being a woman and all...) Well, apparently the surname of her husband (Henry, Lord Darnley) was 'Stuart'; so in fact the dynasty did change — but by a coincidence, the new name was the same as the old! (With a minor difference in spelling.) Is this accurate? Was there really a house of Stewart, followed by a house of Stuart? (I realize that spelling was more fluid then --- so the spelling difference is perhaps artificial; but convenient for us nonetheless.)

Both Mary's father and Darnley had an an unbroken line of male descent from Alexander Stewart (fourth High Steward of Scotland, died 1283), so effectively they were part of the same house. Darnley's grandfather, the 3rd Earl of Lennox, was born a Stewart, but I don't know when the spelling was changed to Stuart. I'll put this in the article. -- Gregg 05:29, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

From www.royal.gov.uk "Kings and Queens of Scotland page on MARY, QUEEN OF SCOTS (r. 1542-67):

Undeterred, the Scots in 1548 betrothed Mary to the French King Henri II's heir, the Dauphin Francis, and sent her to be brought up at the French Court. It is said that the spelling of the royal family name of Stewart changed to Stuart at that time, to suit French conventional spelling.'

So an authoritative source doesn't give definitive grounds for the change, but does locate the time shortly before MQS's reign. ---- Charles Stewart 12:36, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Should we use the Coat of Arms that was used for the majority of the House of Stuart instead of this this Coat of Arms which was only used during part of Queen Anne's reign?

Could we have the periods of the House of Stuarts Reign in the Kingdom of Ireland defined and distinguished from the reign in Scotland and England please? This is of importance to the present as Ireland remained loyal during the Commonwealth resisting the English Republican Army for as long as possible, and also as Ireland did not follow the Orange Prince's Revolution also resisting it in arms till the Unimplemented Treaty and also[more difficult to argue] took no part in the 1688 Whig Conspiracy. CusaM2@aol.com

Walter the Steward (d 1177) was the first of the Stewarts. It is now generally held that he did indeed descend from Banquo in the direct male line. Walter's father was Alan of Lochaber, (d.1153) who married Adelina of Oswestry, daughter of Alan FitzFlaald de Hesdin (d. circa 1122), grandson of Alan Seneschal of Dol, Britanny (d after 1045) Alan of Lochaber's father, Walter, Thane of Lochaber (d. 1093), married Emma, a granddaughter of the Alan Seneschal of Dol above. Walter of Lochaber was the son of Fleance, son of Banquo. Thus there were two Breton links. There has long been controversy in the origin of the Stewarts, mainly due perhaps to Walter the Steward having been "Fitzalan" due to his father and being born to a mother whose maiden name was also Fitzalan. A further confusion was between the names Fleance, son of Banquo, and Flaald, son of the above Alan Seneschal of Dol. Fleance and Flaald were the same generation

I would like to agree with this version of their genealogy, as I'm pretty sure Stewarts were aware of their own origins in a period when such tracing would be much more important than a future era in which lineage was less important and their heritage was revised by somebody else. It would explain their support in the Irish/Gaelic community, like the British/Brythonic adherents of Tudors. 68.110.8.21 00:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 A lesson in opportunity cost 2 Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII 3 Henry IX? 4 House of Stuart? 5 Dates 6 Direct Ancestors of Flaald 7 Coat of Arms 8 Observation 9 Let's go with Stewart 10 Flaald II?? 11 James II

[edit] A lesson in opportunity cost

I would suggest sticking with one version of the name [ie either Stuart or Stewart] throughout the whole article. Whereas is it good to show that both spellings are correct, I think an encyclopaedia article should be coherent and stick to one spelling instead of alternating. In the article both spellings are used. Thus whereas the title of the article reads House of Stuart, a subtitle reads Stewart. Also in the article itself both versions are used interchangeably, seemingly at random, and whereas this is no mistake, it is unsightly. I hope I do not sound too pedantic, but just enough.

I've been working on an essay involving Mary Queen of Scots and want to clarify the issue. The early Stewarts spelled their name as such (those descended from a Celt-Anglo-Norman ancestry). Mary was sent to France when she wed the dauphin and while there, her family under the leadership of the Guises, changed the surname from the English word Stewart to the French version, Stuart. Technically, this did not also affect the rest of the family but as the family head and sovereign of all Scotland, it appears the majority of the extended family sided with the French spelling including her second husband and father of her son, Lord Darnley (her paternal cousin and maternal first cousin). The dynasty kept the same surname through Anne, despite the minor rule of the House of Orange under William III. Stuart should only appear in this article during the reign of Mary I and Stewart should likewise be discontinued at that point.
—Whaleyland 23:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Descendents of Edward IV and Henry VII

What sort of social rank would one have to bear in their family, in order to be a descendent of either?

How far up the totem pole, would you say?

This is intended to have broad answers and based on gradients of time and population, not going into specifics about exact descendents. About how common is their descent in the English or British genepool today?

I've noticed that American Presidents don't descend from either king, but the most common recent royal ancestor shared by many of us is Edward III. How common is it for anybody in the English or British genepool, to have a Protestant royal ancestor?

There is a general cutoff, isn't there?

Is it because of fratricide in the Wars of the Roses, the Tudors' "new men", or the Union of the Crowns, or the parliamentary union under Queen Anne (I can't think of any non-royal family descent from the Hanoverians within the UK)?

I'm thinking that there is a big difference between Plantagenet and Tudor descents, that the commons in all likelihood have the former and the latter is held by the lords. (just generally speaking) Then again, Tudor descent in the Welsh must be higher in general. I am further curious about pre-Royal Tudor blood in Anglo-British people today, since the status and/or concept of Welsh royalty/nobility is rather hazy in my mind. I found the Blevins aka Ap Bleddyn family of Powys in my ancestry, but have no real idea on what to make of it--or any other Welsh "native aristocracy". I might be able to find Stewart descent somewhere, from way back when. What percentage of Hanoverian background do you think that German colonists had in America?

On the British side, I have to go as far back as Welf himself...but any recent genetic relationship with the Hanoverians or the counts of Nassau are completely obscure. How does one research those other colonial people, such as the Hessians?

UK genealogy is relatively easy when focusing on English (and French) ancestries. What would a "national person" of Jerusalem (or Antioch, for example) in Crusader times be known as?

We say "American" for those Founders, but was there such a nationality-term for the Crusaders in their own domains?

I guess the term is supposed to be Levantine/Outremer, or "Crusader" as our national heritage says "Colonist"...

IP Address 12:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite get what the point of this passage is. There is a very strong trace of Edward III's blood in nearly all people who can claim descent back to the 1700s in Britain. He had many sons and many daughters and nearly all of them surprisingly survived to adulthood. Also, Edward I provided a number of surviving adults who intermarried to English and French courts. This is why there is such a strong tint of Plantagenet blood in English families.

Pre-royal Stewart blood is also very prominent but after James VI's ascension to the English throne, virtually none of his descendents intermixed with other families and the line died out after 100 years. Similarly, the Tudor family only has surviving lines through the ancient Welsh ancestors. The only royal that has descendents is Henry VII and that is primarily through the Stuart line. Most English royalty since the Hanovarian take-over have wed their children to other royals or nobles thus few non-noble descendents exist except voluntarily.

Regarding your question to the number of descendents, I read once that over 300,000 surviving descendents of Edward III exist today, but that guess was highly underrated according to the author (who I don't remember). The War of the Roses seems to have had little influence over surviving children. Even a line of the Plantagenet family exists today through the Somerset line (though it is a bastard line). Most British people are descended from Protestants, only a small portion of Catholics exist.

Finally, Crusaders would identify themselves with their kingdom most likely. That is the kingdom they came from or the Outremer Kingdom depending on their birth and allegiance. The concept of national identity was foreign in the middle ages and people generally oriented themselves toward villages, cities, towns, or kingdoms. Therefore a knight from Jerusalem would be known as a Knight of Jerusalem or of his order and nothing more. His name could be Arthur of Jerusalem or David of Bethlehem.
–Whaleyland ( Talk • Contributions ) 21:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The point of this is, that I am doing a basic canvassing-research because...I am turned off by "Anglo-Saxonists" who deny post-1066 heritage and pretend they are being oppressed--I am looking for the holistic sense of English and Simon Schama's perceptions of the Plantagenets I do share. I am further dismayed at the results of the Protestant Reformation, but I take it as a side-affect to the Black Death and failure of the Crusades.

I know about Edward III, but am curious about Edward IV's blood descendents.

I take it by your wording, that Henry Tudor's descent is still pretty much exclusive/aristocratic?

When I refer to Catholic/Protestant, I am sure there is some overall displacement between having royal descent from reigning Catholics or reigning Protestants.

Thanks for wrapping up my Crusader question, although I remember "Maltese", "Rhodesian" and "Cypriot" as ethnicities.

IP Address 23:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Edward IV didn't have very many blood descendents that I know of. His daughter Catherine married the Earl of Devon and they had some descendents. Elizabeth married Henry Tudor. Besides that, there really isn't much I know of. Check Leo's Genealogics for more on that family. His site is really well researched and sourced and has most of the bastard lines listed as well.

Most of Henry Tudor's descent is exclusive. Once again, check the above site. He did have a little bit of a line from Mary, his daughter, whom Lady Jane Gray was a descendent. But that was aristocratic too.

The reigning Catholic families in Britain were exiled or forced to convert. James II's family was sent into exile except the Protestant part. I am not sure about any of their cousins, but all the remaining ones were bastards or children of James I.

Finally, Maltese refers to citizens of Malta, a state still existing in the Mediterranean Sea. During the Crusades, it was a refuge for various Knights Orders Rhodesian is a term referring to Greeks on Rhodesia, not Crusaders. And Cypriot is the term referring to Cyprus citizens, both Greek and Turkish (still in use).
–Whaleyland ( Talk • Contributions ) 04:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the most comprehensive information. I am sure that it will help others as well. IP Address 11:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not concur that "most of us" can trace back to King Edward III. Because of the sheer size of the population in England down through the ages, and the fact that class barriers were fairly rigid until the 17th century, at least, this seems unlikely. What I normally say to people who say this is "prove it". Most cannot. So it's just gossip. As for the Tudors, I commend you to The Blood Royal of Britain being a Roll of the living descendants of Edward IV and Henry VII (Tudor Roll) by the Marquis de Ruvigny and Raineval, London, 1903. This has been reprinted by the Genealogical publishing Co., in Baltimore (1994) and has an ISBN 0-8063-1431-1 Regards, David Lauder 19:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Henry IX?

The Cardinal Duke of York adopted the style 'Henry IX' on the death of his brother, Charles, but purely as a matter of form. He never made any attempt to claim the throne. Not even the most rabid Jacobite believed that the British people would accept an elderly cardinal in the Roman church as their king. Rcpaterson 23:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I've read that the Vatican struck a medal commemorating the accession of Henry IX to the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland; if I can determine the copyright status this weekend, I'll post it to the article on Henry, and perhaps add some information here. Argyriou 20:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you; that would be most interesting. I was under the impression that the last Stuart to be accorded official recognition by the Vatican was James Francis Edward up to his death in 1766. The Pope certainly refused to recognize his son as 'Charles III'. I have no idea what the attitude was to Henry; but I suspect this medal would have been honorary and unofficial. Rcpaterson 22:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, "The Vatican" was not an independent State until 1929, unless you're referring to the Papal States. It seems highly unlikely that a State anywhere would officially press a medal which was frowned upon by the Head of State, especially at that time. David Lauder 19:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] House of Stuart?

Surely this article should be titled "House of Stewart" and the first line "The House of Stewart or Stuart(anglicised)" given that the great majority of this house and its kings used to Scottish version? I dont see why the later anglicised form from the really rather brief period of joint Scottish-English kingship should be given primacy.siarach 08:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Stuart is not 'anglicised'; it is 'frenchified'. Mary Stewart went to France in 1548, and came back twelve years later as Mary Stuart. From that point forward she and her successors used the French spelling, both in Scotland and England. In England, from the reign of James I onwards, the dynasty was Stuart, and they were never known by any other name. This is the correct form, and this is how it should remain. Rcpaterson 23:00, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to come in so late on this subject but whilst Mary may have adopted the French spelling - Stuart - there is no decisive evidence that any of the other members of the non-Royal Stewart family did so for centuries if at all. I am inclined to agree with User:An Siarach that if it is to be called anything as a primary heading then it should be the House of Stewart, which was in use far longer, and overwhelmingly more than Stuart. David Lauder 21:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree and also believe (although am not positive) that most current members of the House of Steward (through older cadet branches and illegitimate lines) regard themselves as Stewarts, not Stuarts. Through research, I have found that only the descendants of Mary I of Scotland used that spelling. Sure her husband (a Stewart) adopted it, but that was because he was married to the queen regnant.
–Whaleyland ( Talk • Contributions ) 21:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

We Scots are STUARTS and not STEWARTS. The Stewarts are ENGLISH, not Scots. We repudiate the Stewart spelling for that reason. Anon.

Well thats the way the Scots spelt it until almost the 17th century so which Scots do you represent? David Lauder 19:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, but surely Stewart represents the Scottish pronunciation of the word currently spelled steward in English, so it's at least as Scottish as it is English. Lindsay 10:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

I edited this page to correct a misconception about dates. I assumed no explanation would be required, but clearly it is. I know that the author meant to convey that the separate kingdoms of England and Scotland came to an end in 1707, but the way it was phrased implied that the house of Hanover came to the throne, in succession to the Stewarts/Stuarts, in that same year. Queen Anne, of course, stayed on the throne until her death in 1714. Rcpaterson 01:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've had to amend this yet again because people with no knowledge of the subject would have been led into the mistaken impression that Stuart rule ended in 1707. The new wording will, I hope, be seen to cover all angles. Rcpaterson 07:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, your amendments are certainly clearer. One thing though, my understanding is that the “Kingdom of Great Britain” predates the 1707 Act of Union, as James I / VI styled himself “King of Great Britain” when the crowns of England and Scotland were unified in 1603. Queen Anne would technically not have been the first monarch of Great Britain, therefore, but the first to rule over a politically unified England and Scotland. I have raised the same point in the article on the Monument to the Royal Stuarts and one contributor is evidently in possession of a set of Stuart coins in which the kings style themselves “MAG BR FRA ET HIB REX”. If I am correct, then perhaps the introduction should be amended accordingly.Rumblingthunder 18:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Please have a look at the Union of the Crowns which touches on this very subject. Though James used the style 'King of Great Britain etc.' this was a purely personal assumption, and in terms of constitutional law the individual kingdoms had no 'corporate identity', so to speak. Anne was indeed the first monarch of a unified state of Great Britain. Rcpaterson 07:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I think the introduction now reflects that. It’s not an easy situation to express concisely without causing either confusion or pedants like me to but in. Rumblingthunder 09:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Direct Ancestors of Flaald

Who were the direct ancestors of Flaald? This has been a big mystery to me since he is my direct ancestor.--Kylests 04:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Kyle Mackenzie Street

[edit] Coat of Arms

I notice that the depiction of the coat of arms uses, for Ireland, a precise and accurate depiction of the Brian Boru harp. Is this particular way of depicting the Harp of Ireland contemporary, or is this a modern rendering of the original coat of arms? I am trying to determine when heraldic Irish Harps began to be modelled after the one kept in Trinity College, especially as I've seen a number of devices using a "winged goddess" harp, with the body and head constituting the pillar, and bridge fashioned (or rather depicted) as wings. --Svartalf 17:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Observation

Has anybody else noticed that from the reign of Mary Queen of Scots, the House of Stuart tends to have gone from a 'clever king' to a 'silly stuart'? Mary Queen of Scots was quite daft, compared to James VI who was clever, and Charles I who was daft, and Charles II who was clever, and James II who was daft, and William III who was clever and Queen Anne who was daft? I know this isn't very encyclopedic, but I just wondered if anybody else had noticed this? --MC 19:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let's go with Stewart

Stuart is French. Since we're talking about Scotland, let's use the English language version of the name: Stewart. We don't refer to the house of Bruce as the house of Brus or the house of Brix (fill in any other spellings....). 71.203.171.248 13:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree. See my comment above under House of Stuart? David Lauder 20:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

And see mine as well - the French were still Catholic as were the Scots and they were allies, often providing safe haven for those wanted by the English crown. We Scots repudiate the English spelling. Anon.

Some allies. They just used the Scots. What did the Scots ever gain from that stupid alliance?? By Mary, Queen of Scots time the Reformation had arrived in Scotland. Catholics were being burnt. By Scots. Someone with such little knowledge of Scottish history should not purport to speak for "we Scots", even anonymously. David Lauder 19:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The most common usage in English publications is 'Stuart' (even though it's French). We should leave it as 'Stuart'. GoodDay 22:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The Clan itself uses Stewart, but the Royal Family uses Stuart. 68.110.8.21 01:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flaald II??

According to these two websites, http://www.clanstewart.org/History/ClanHistory.asp

http://www.thepeerage.com/p511.htm#i5101

There's no such person named Flaald, wondering if any wrong here??--JéRRy.雨雨.talk.hk 17:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] James II

James II of England was replaced by his daughter and son-in-law, not sister and brother-in-law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NevarMaor (talk • contribs) 20:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)