Talk:Geneva Conventions

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Contents 1 History Re-written 2 Did the United States ratify the Geneva Conventions? 3 Translation Project 4 Countries recently in breach of the Geneva Conventions 5 breach of geneva convention 6 "War against Terror" 7 Reorganizing convention/protocol pages. 8 I just heard on the news that there is one country

[edit] History Re-written

I read in this book that history was rewritten in this and it's following conventions to favor the winners and the western societies. Any sources on this?

[edit] Did the United States ratify the Geneva Conventions?

A reader interested in this current issue may be unable to easily answer it, since the following external link leads to a page that says it is out of service:

[broken external link] States party to the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols

Perhaps a POV-neutral page that answers the question might be added? A short page entitled "Did the United States sign the Geneva Conventions?" is to be found at http://ask.yahoo.com/20020212.html

The fact that the US indeed is a state party to the Geneva Conventions can easily be verified by a number of different sources, and therefore it can be considered an established and undisputed fact. In my humble opinion, there is no need to add a weblink to the article just for this single issue - remember that selection of weblinks should follow a "best of the best" approach. And if anything, either the Swiss Department of Foreign Affairs as the body who accepts signatures and ratifications, or the ICRC as the supreme guardian of International Humanitarian Law, should be used as the most competent, accurate and neutral source for this information. --Uwe 22:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation Project

Another guy requested it, but i am starting the translation of the german article. Have a closer look to the project page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Translation/Geneva_Conventions if you want to participate.

By now i finish the main translation work. i need some native english speakers with a good proficiency of german if possible, for proof reading - Yamok 13:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Countries recently in breach of the Geneva Conventions

Countries which have recently breached the Geneva Conventions include:

• United Kingdom (shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland)
• United States of America (failure to prevent massacre of POWs in Afghanistan; systematic human rights abuses in treatment of prisoners)
• Israel (systematic human rights abuses; systematic maltreatment of prisoners)
• Russia (systematic and routine maltreatment of prisoners in Chechnya)
• Burundi (attacks on International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC))
• Zaire (attacks on ICRC)
• Rwanda (attacks on ICRC)

Could someone reference this? I don't ever recall reading this in the Geneva Conventions.

In the field, soldiers of a signatory who carry prohibited equipment or perform prohibited actions are subject to summary field execution without a trial. This is usually carried out on prisoners of war who are captured with prohibited equipment. It may be ordered by the senior officer of a group that observed an atrocity and can recognize participating individuals.

You may need to look in the Hague Declaration. Rmhermen 04:32, Oct 24, 2003 (UTC)

Like the case of USA, a good reference would be this guys advice [1] that ended up on this story [2]

A couple of corrections. First, alleged violations of the Geneva Conventions are not heard by the International Court of Justice; it has no jurisdiction over criminal acts. For those states which have joined the International Criminal Court (ICC), war crimes including breaches of the Geneva Conventions can be heard there; the United States is not a party to the ICC. Second, on the above comment about summary execution, the 1907 Hague Regulations have been modified by the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 to prohibit any kind of summary execution. A good place to consult is Crimes of War. Ken 20 November 2004

goto www.genevaconventions.org for more results

Is it appropriate to have a section on the so-called "War on Terror" in this article? The very definition is extreemly biased towards the American viewpoint, and the article uses heavily prejudicial language against the other side. Both sides are clearly comitting war crimes in contravention of the Geneva Conventions.

What worry me is why this list is so limited. Are some transgressions permitted? Iran violated something when they took American hostages in 1979, didn't they? And there was that little war in Israel in 1967. I didn't see any names on the list, except Israel.

If there is suppose to be no bias, then let's list everything. What about the civil wars throughout the world where both sides did some rather nasty things? Are militias involved in a civil war suppose to abide by the convention since the country for which they are fighting about is a signator? Hezbollah says they represent Lebanon, so should they be forced to abide by the convention based on the fact that Lebanon is a signator? Then again, if a militia is taking its orders from a third country that is a signator, shouldn't they still be required based on that fact that third country is a signator? Will we allow countries to get around the Geneva Convention that uses militas as proxies. I thought that one of the rules is that one must be affiliated with a country and wearing a uniform of that country. Is it now the rule that everyone gets protection regardless of thier own actions in following the convention rules? Can Americans now wear civilian clothes in Iraq so that they are less noticable to the insurgants and not be considered to be in violation?

user:mnw2000 02:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Who exactly is responsible for bringing convention violators to justice? Is there a court in The Hague for this? Does NATO or the U.N. get involved? Are charges against Americans being withheld until George W Bush finishes his term so that he can't pardon anyone? --Ace Frahm 12:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] breach of geneva convention

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/25/military_cites_risk_of_abuse_by_cia/ "WASHINGTON -- Top military lawyers have told senators that President Bush's new rules for CIA interrogations of suspected terrorists could allow abuses that violate the Geneva Conventions, according to Senate and military officials." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.17.165 (talk) 07:19, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

• United States of America (failure to prevent massacre of POWs in Afghanistan; systematic human rights abuses in treatment of prisoners)

wouldn't al-qaida and the taliban need to be signatories of the geneva convention before you could say that the united states breached the conventions in regard to its treatment of al-qaida and taliban combatants? i'm not sure that the conventions are meant to be construed as binding law upon all nations, including those that were not signatory to them. and if you are going to say that the united states breached the conventions in regard to treatment of al-qaida prisoners, wouldnt you also have to list al-qaida as breaching the conventions for its attacks on civilians?

USA cant breach the Geneva Convention...because the US is not a signatary to it. And I believe this ::is worth mentioning in the article page.

That's totally wrong. The US signed the current revisions of the Geneva Conventions (all four of them) on August 12, 1949 and ratified them in 1955. In fact, the US is a state party to ALL revisions of the Geneva Conventions which came into effect throughout history - the US became a state party to the 1864 Convention in 1882, and was a signatory state for the 1906, 1929 and 1949 revisions. As the US never withdrew its signature (I know of no country which ever did so), the Geneva Conventions became part of US law after ratification by the US Congress and the US president. --Uwe 09:03, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The question is, what or who do the Geneva Conventions apply to and how does this apply to the current situation we have today. TDC 01:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

A couple of comments. First, Al-Qaida cannot violate the Geneva Conventions because they are not a signatory. They cannot be a signatory because only legally recognized states can sign the Geneva Conventions. In theory, they could deposit a (non-binding) unilateral declaration with the ICRC that they accept and respect the Geneva Conventions, like the ANC in South Africa and a couple of other armed liberation movements in Africa did. As that would have no significance other than perhaps bolstering up their credibility and acceptance within the civilized world, both things that Al-Qaida doesn't care much at all about, it's highly unlikely that Al-Qaida will do so. And considering that few people outside of Al-Qaida consider them to be a liberation movement, it would have little if any effect regarding Al-Qaida's credibility and acceptance.

As for the USA. As said above, the United States is a signatory state to the Geneva Conventions and as such bound to follow their rules. They are bound to follow the rules of the third Geneva Convention as far as prisoners of war are concerned. Regarding Afghanistan, that includes captured Taliban fighters as it is generally accepted that the Taliban constituted an organized militia group belonging to a Party to the conflict according to article 4(2) of GC-III (Afghanistan is a state party to the Geneva Conventions). GC-III does not apply to captured members of Al-Qaida as Al-Qaida is neither a regular armed force nor a militia or volunteer corps belonging to any state party of the Geneva Conventions.

Now comes the complicated part. What applies to captured members of Al-Qaida in most individual cases is the fourth Geneva Convention about Civilian Persons in Time of War. That might be difficult to grasp but GC-IV is sort of a "catch all" convention which applies to almost anybody who is not protected by any of the other three conventions. That is evident from article 4 of GC-IV: "Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals." Furthermore, article 4 defines a couple of exceptions: "Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are." So the only relevant criterion to exempt somebody from the protection of GC-IV (and henceforth, from any protection by any of the four Geneva Conventions) is his nationality. As per article 5 of GC-IV, an individual protected person who is definitely suspected of or engaged in hostile activities is not entitled to protection by GC-IV only IF and only AS LONG as granting him full protection would be prejudicial to the security of the detaining power. (which naturally means the security of the territory, the armed forces and the civilian population of the detaining power).

So in summary, almost anybody who, in an armed conflict, finds himself in the hand of a party to the conflict is protected either by the third or the fourth Geneva Convention. The only relevant criterion for exceptions is the nationality as per article 4 of GC-IV. As long as captured members of Al-Qaida fulfill the nationality requirement of article 4, they are entitled to protection according to the rules of GC-IV as soon as they are properly detained and, as individuals, do no longer constitute a threat to the security of the US. It's important to keep in mind that the decision about protection by GC-IV is always to be made on an individual case-by-case basis.

The case is completely different for members of Al-Qaida who are captured outside of a theatre of war. As the Geneva Conventions apply to situations of armed conflicts only, they have no legal significance outside of such situations.

Hope that clarifies a few points. --Uwe 08:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

But the rest of article IV says:

"Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

"In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be."

Since they already have shown their willingness to go back onto the battlefield to continue their fight, it makes sense that all they are entitled to is humane treatment and - at some point - a trial as prescribed by the Convention. But they certainly are not "prisoners of war".

--WJH 03:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)WJH

First, you're actually quoting from article 5 (not article 4). Second, the fourth Geneva Convention from which you quoted article 5 is not about POW's and their rights and privileges, but about anybody who finds himself in the hand of a foreign party to the conflict, while NOT qualifying for better protection as a POW (GC-III) or as a wounded or shipwrecked soldier (GC-I and GC-II). Third, the part which you quoted also says that even individuals who are detained as a spy or saboteur, or who are under suspicion of having committed hostile actions, should be granted the full rights under GC-IV at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State. Fourth, I don't find anything in GC-III that says that "willingness to go back onto the battlefield" disqualifies somebody from POW status, or something to that effect. Quite contrary, the convention actually recognizes a return to the battlefield as legitimate when it says in article 91 that POW's cannot be punished for a successful earlier escape if recaptured. Preventing enemy combatants from returning to the battlefield is the very reason for detaining them as POW's until the end of the conflict. --Uwe 08:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply ... I was unable to find the definition of a "prisonal of war" in GC-IV, now I know why. I am following this discussion to try to understand the debate on how Al-Qaida and the Taliban fighters should be treated. I make a distintion between the "Taliban" as opposed to Afghanistan, since the Taliban and Al-Qaida are trans-national political-religous movements. My point about returning to the battlefield was based on the following news report:

Cheney mentioned the name of Maulvi Abdul Ghaffar, a released Guantanamo prisoner who returned to Afghanistan and became a Taliban commander, and was killed last year by Afghan forces. Cheney also cited Mullah Shehzada, who he said returned from the prison to organize a jail break in Afghanistan, and who was also killed last year by U.S. forces. Elisabeth Bumiller, New York Times Tuesday, June 14, 2005

I maintain neither the Taliban nor Al-Qaida adhere to important principles that are the basis of all the GCs and their predecessors. Therefore they cannot be considered POWs.

Here are three elements of the GC that Al-Qaida and Taliban fighters routinely break:

The Laws of War on Land. Oxford, 9 September 1880.

Part I : General principles

Art. 4. The laws of war do not recognize in belligerents an unlimited liberty as to the means of injuring the enemy.

GC-III, Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) ....

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, [...], provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) that of carrying arms openly;

(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977. Part III : Methods and means of warfare

Article 37 -- Prohibition of perfidy

1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:

(a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;

(b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;

(c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and

(d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.

So if they are not POWs, they are just people with guns. They would then be covered under GC-IV. Since they did not break any laws in the USA, after they are interrogated, it would make sense to return them to the authorities where they were captured (mostly Afghanistan and Iraq, I think) instead of continuing to detain and try them under USA law and procedures. --WJH 06:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "War against Terror"

Just skimming through this page, there is a part which I have trouble to understand:

In the 1990's and culminating on September 11, 2001, the United States of America was the inactive participant in a war with Islamic Fundamentalist groups, and as such much of the "War on Terror" has centered around American interests.

In the 90s, I think it makes reasonable sense to say that European countries were at least as exposed as the USA to islamist terrorism (see Khaled Kelkal, etc.), so the reason why ""War on Terror" has centered around American interests" is very nebulous to me, and I fail to understand the relationship with the Geneva conventions. Furthermore, the "War against Terror" which we know was officially announced by Bush Jr after the 11th of September 2001, so I find myself on a chronological problem here. Rama 08:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree in part. The term "War on Terror" has never been used by governments outside the USA, I believe. Most countries other than the US unfortunately had plenty of experience with terrorism before 11 September, so the Ódramatic upswing in interest (or dismay at such interest) has been down to the current administration. I think the statement pointed out should stay. Drrngrvy 06:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

For my part, I cannot understand how you can fight a war on a tactic. Terror is a tactic, invented a long time ago. It may be proscribed by some GC, I don't know. But declaring a war on a tactic is silly. We should label what the world is fighting against more clearly.--WJH 06:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Taliban fighters in a Theater of War:

"Under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention, however, Taliban detainees are not entitled to POW status. To qualify as POWs under Article 4, al Qaeda and Taliban detainees would have to have satisfied four conditions: They would have to be part of a military hierarchy; they would have to have worn uniforms or other distinctive signs visible at a distance; they would have to have carried arms openly; and they would have to have conducted their military operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war." http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030507-18.html

Furthermore, armed civilians in a country are not covered, unless they follow the laws and customs of war under any circumstance. Enemy Combatants captured on the field of battle who do not follow the rules of law do not receive the same rights under the Geneva Conventions no matter who they are.

24.46.44.243 18:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC) A.OTT

As said above, it is generally accepted that the Taliban (not Al Qaeda!) constituted an organized militia group belonging to a Party to the conflict according to article 4(2) of GC-III (Afghanistan is a state party to the Geneva Conventions). Whether individual members of the Taliban fulfill all requirements of article 4 GC-III is up for decision (on a case-by-case basis) by a competent tribunal (see article 5). One thing to keep in mind is that violations of the laws and customs of war by individual members of an otherwise protected group do not render all members of that group ineligible for protection. Likewise, the fact that some individual civilians do not follow the laws and customs of war does not mean that all armed civilians in that conflict or region loose their rights according to GC-III. And finally, even persons who have committed belligerent acts, but are for some reason not entitled to POW status and protection according to GC-III, have to be considered for protection according to the fourth Genevs Convention (article 4 GC-IV: Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.). That would, for example, include Al Qaeda members which are not eligible for POW status according to GC-III. --Uwe 20:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I will only say that the Taliban was not the internationally recognized national government of Afghanistan. They were not a party to the GC. They repudiated almost everything the secular government of Afghanistan represented. They probably would not have signed the GCs if they were asked. Nor do they accept many of the concepts that form the foundation (e.g separation of church and state) for the GCs. If the Taliban were the militia of the internationally recognized government of Afghanistan, then your point (assume they are POWs and individually prove they should not be accorded that status) would be logical. But the other position (assume they are not POWs and accord them protection under GC-IV) seems more valid to me.--WJH 06:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that POW status for Taliban fighters is not a clear-cut issue. But from what I read, many legal scholars with expertise in the field of International Humanitarian Law agree that, on the organizational level, the Taliban GENERALLY fulfill the characteristics of "an organized militia group belonging to a Party to the conflict". Keep in mind that the "Party to the conflict" in this context is the state of Afghanistan. The Taliban was not a party to the GC because only states can sign the conventions. On the other hand, the Taliban government did not withdraw Afghanistan's signature while ruling the country (which would have been perfectly possible). Based on the assumption that the Taliban indeed was "an organized militia group belonging to a Party to the conflict", it's up to an individual decision for each captured Taliban fighter to judge whether he acted in accordance with the conventions, and whether to grant him POW status or not based on that decision. One point to keep in mind is that long-standing US military policy for the application of the law of war (and for granting POW status) was a very generous "in dubio pro reo" approach in former wars. In other words, if there were any doubts about whether a captured enemy fighter was to be granted POW status or not, the decision was generelly in favour of the detainee as long as there was any significant indication that he MIGHT qualify. Regarding this point, the US approach went far beyond what is prescribed by the GC and was explictly praised by the ICRC as being a positive model for other countries.

As for the Gitmo detainees, it would be interesting to know how many of them belonged to the Taliban and how many to Al Qaeda. Last but not least, I would like to point out that there are few significant differences between GC-III and GC-IV regarding the treatment of POW's vs. civilian internees. The most important rules can be found in the common article 3 of all four conventions, and the US Supreme Court recently found in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld that article 3 applies to ALL detainees. --Uwe 10:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems safe to assume that many of those detained as being members of the Taliban were part of the official armed forces of that party to the conflict in Afganistan both the civil war and with the United States, as such they would fall under Section 1 Article 4 of GCIII. Furthermore many of those being detained, apart from those that were turned in for bounties and have little if any evidence against them (ie the 80 year old man), may fall under the category of Section 4. Additionally the argument that the Taliban is not covered as they were not a party is irrelevant because they did claim to be the lawful government of Afganistan, and in claiming such a position were also necessarily claiming to be a party to such treaties as GCIII. Admittedly to a minor extent the United States could claim that the conflict and combatants are such that they would be covered only by Protocol 1, which, unlike 166 other countries it is not a party, although it is a signatory. CACLF 15:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganizing convention/protocol pages.

I think a complete reorganization of the pages covering the conventions is in order. Here are several concerns:

• This page, which talks a little about what the conventions are before going on to give half a dozen links to their various parts, is boring, uninformative, and needlessly inconvenient. Users who wish to have a basic understanding of all the provisions in the conventions/protocols should be able to view them together to get a better understanding of their breadth and implications. This is a large and complex topic, and it shouldn't be relegated to this type of small page that just links to various other pages, where all of the pertinent information is scattered.
• Additionally, the pages on each of the Conventions and Protocols either have a sentence or two about the convention/protocol, or they list the full text thereof. The full-text ones need to be consolidated into a summary, with links to the full texts. In either case, none of these pages provide enough raw or unique information to warrant an individual page, which again suggests that a merge is necessary.
• The link to Protocol III goes to a redirect which goes to information about the recent Red Crystal symbol and flag. This linking problem can be fixed immediately without debate, although I think the Red Crystal deserves its own page and shouldn't have to share one with information about the third protocol. This would also be solved by merging Protocol III info here.

Rodeosmurf 15:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The translation of the german article (see above) aims at changing some of these things. the german article give summaries of the different conventions and their most important articles and of the development of the conventions - Yamok 14:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I just heard on the news that there is one country

that has not signed the geneva convention(s). who is that? is it mentioned in an article somewhere? is there a list of members? McKzzFizzer 16:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The Republic of Nauru is an independent state since 1968 and a member of the United Nations since 1999, but has not yet signed the Geneva Conventions. A list of signatory states can be found at the website of the ICRC, check this link. --Uwe 18:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Correction: the Republic of Nauru acceded to the Geneva Conventions and the Additional Protocols on June 27, 2006. So right now, there is actually no country which is not a state party to the Geneva Conventions. --Uwe 09:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That's true - even Montenegro is now also a party of the conventions.62.142.46.22 22:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)